Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2015 October 3

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October 3

What happened to the annual September monument photo contest this year?

I realize this may not be the best place to ask this question, but I couldn't find a better one.

I have participated in this contest since 2012, when I believe it was called Wikipedia Loves Monuments. I have contributed photos to the NRHP list for several central Iowa counties. I was only able to view Wikipedia on my smart phone during most of September and could not see the full main page.

I know I can add photos to this list anytime, but I looked forward to the contest. Was it cancelled this year? Cancelled for good?CelticClicker (talk) 04:03, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

@CelticClicer: It's here. Dismas|^(talk) 04:13, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

How do you get around "Freedom of Panorama" restrictions? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:39, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs: What restrictions are you talking about? Dismas|^(talk) 01:52, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

That the USA lacks "Freedom of Panorama", so for example I cannot upload pictures of statues and tombstones and the like, as they will be deleted by FOP watchdogsd. As I understand it, some European nations are even stricter. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:37, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

The US does allow FOP for buildings. Also there are all monuments too old for any copyright protection. Note also a number of countries are also less strict than the US (most commonly, allowing 3D artworks and often 2D as well). Surprisingly the us WLM page doesn't seem to mention FOP at all [1] but the general WLM FAQ does Commons:Commons:Wiki Loves Monuments 2015/FAQ#What is the minimum setup for a national Wiki Loves Monuments competition?. I presume when the Wikipedia:WikiProject National Register of Historic Places list was drawn up, attention was already paid to FOP issues. Nil Einne (talk) 03:51, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

@Dismas:A related question about uploading photos. I have uploaded two photos, one each to the NRHP lists for Clay County and Palo Alto County, Iowa respectively. When I click the upload photo link in the list it takes me to the upload wizard for Summer of Monuments. Should I continue to use this wizard? Will using it land my photos in a Wikipedia black hole until the next time the USA participates in the Wiki Loves Monuments contest? What would you suggest?CelticClicker (talk) 21:59, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

@CelticClicker: I have no idea. I just found the link with a little sleuthing. I don't know very much at all about the event. Dismas|^(talk) 23:58, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Could placing enough climbable things amongst big crowds prevent disasters?

Maybe ladders securely rooted in the ground and oriented to not block traffic? How does processionary asphyxiation still happen even in industrialized nations (Love Parade). It's just simple geometry, it seems like there's got to be simple way(s) to stop these tragedies. Are there any problems with this idea? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:02, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Of course I understand that fully understanding the physics of crowd disasters is not as easy as ameliorating them but stopping people from dying is more important. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 18:08, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

One type of crush injury is when a crowd moves up against a solid object, and those in front are crushed to death. That risk can be reduced by using fences designed to fall over if enough force is applied. Of course, this provides some extra area, but eventually the crowd will push into the next barrier. And the fallen fences must not present a trip hazard.

When people are rushing the stage of a concert, you can pull those in front up onto stage, but that might motivate those in back to push even harder.

Another type of crush injury is when panic causes everyone to try to run, and they trample those who fall.

Ultimately, you just need to limit the quantity and density of people to prevent such injuries. Having small groups separated into "pens" would be one way to keep the total crush pressure low. Another simple solution is to have seats and no standing room area. With seats you can only pack in so many people. If anyone attempts to remain standing, they will be yelled at by everyone who's view is being blocked.

For something like the Hajj, they could have a continuous train with seats and no standing room, that circles the Kaaba the required number of times and then departs. If one isn't enough, they could have several at different elevations. They might also want to extend the Hajj to 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. Of course, much of this might run into religious objections. StuRat (talk) 19:17, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

The circling of the Kaaba is usually pretty orderly. Most of the crowd disasters during the hajj occur elsewhere. The most dangerous by far is the stoning of the devil ritual, which is where the latest disaster occurred (as have many previous ones), because a lot of people get channeled into very narrow areas. --71.119.131.184 (talk) 05:56, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

OK, they could have trains take people past those 3 walls, then, with open sides so they can throw their stones. StuRat (talk) 20:49, 4 October 2015 (UTC)

• It's worth pointing out that at the Love Parade disaster, the steps and ladders played a major part in the catastrophe - they caused bottlenecks and were easy to fall from, especially when things were chaotic and quite a few people were drunk. Simiarly, the awful Victoria Hall and Bethnal Green disasters was caused by people hurrying on stairs, tripping, and causing a chain reaction. The only disaster I can think of where people did manage to successfully escape by climbing was the Hillsborough disaster, where fans inside the fenced-in terrace were able to climb the fence to safety. Ultimately, the answer to these disasters is to design areas where the exits are larger and easier to use than the entrances, but that's often easier said than done, since a perfectly engineered building may still be poorly organised (if you believe Saudi Arabia's side of the story, the disaster at the Hajj was caused by one of the exits becoming unexpectedly blocked by a group of pilgrims leaving without permission). Smurrayinchester 21:33, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

(Misremembered the Victoria Hall disaster - although it happened on stairs, and tripping played a role, the disaster was ultimately caused by an unexpected locked door, and led to the introduction of the crash bar door). Smurrayinchester 14:51, 4 October 2015 (UTC)