Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2013 June 20

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June 20

Was this safe?

Yesterday, while I was on the way to the bank, I noticed that a security guard escorting an armoured van was idling. Although I usually pay no heed to such things, I noticed that his right hand was holding the handle of his rifle while his right index finger is flicking some sort of switch (is this a safety switch?) near the trigger. It doesn't look safe but I'm not sure why. --Lenticel ^(talk) 00:14, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

It doesn't sound safe - but the design of safety switches is almost as varied as firearms themselves...so perhaps this switch was some other device. For example, most automatic rifles have a switch to choose between full auto and semi-auto modes - fiddling with that doesn't seem like it would be an inherently dangerous thing to do. Without information about the type of rifle involved, it's going to be hard to give you a good answer. SteveBaker (talk) 00:58, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I think the point was that the switch he was flicking was near the trigger. Even if the switch itself was inherently harmless, I think OP was worried that he might accidentally hit the trigger. — Richard BB 07:39, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Why did the security guard have rifle? Is there a big divide between the poor and rich in your country? I would answer that where you're living is not safe.--Aspro (talk) 01:09, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

If the armored car did not have an armed guard, we would question the sanity of the company. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:19, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Not in countries with low incidence of gun crime. --Dweller (talk) 08:44, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

(EC)In the UK they are not armed. They are merely security guards, and do not have the right to carry lethal weaponry. In any case, the money they are transporting is insured, so they don't have to get involved in a shoot-out. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 08:47, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

So if somebody walks up to that "security" guard with an open penknife and says "give me the money", then that "security" guard says, "Sure, take it all; in fact, I'll help you unload it"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

No, because the the money in the vehicle is held in a time-controlled security safe to which the guard has no access. (Or so it says on the back.) Is this more sensible than a bored driver fiddling with an automatic weapon on a public street? Well, depends on your point of view, I guess. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 13:33, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

(EC)Unlikely, Bugs. In the first place, anyone employed as this type of Security Guard in the UK must be professional qualified as such, and should surely be able to defend him/herself from someone armed merely with a legally carriable knife (as a penknife would be); in the second place, Security vans in the UK are designed such that neither the drivers nor other guards can access their contents, which are loaded via a securely one-way hatch - the vehicle can only be unloaded by others in a secure environment, and this both well known and is advertised on the vans' exteriors.

If thieves armed with lethal weapons were to attempt a heist, the guards would not resist but the most the thieves could achieve would be to steal the whole vehicle, which will be actively trackable and would be subject to an immediate major police operation involving Armed Police. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 13:39, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Sure, the contents are fitted with a ton of security devices to track the criminals and recover the contents. And if the contents aren't recovered, they're insured. The guard is there as a deterrent, a witness, and maybe to get the valuables into a safer part of the van (watch the opening scene of Trance for the art gallery equivalent), not to tackle the thugs. MChesterMC (talk) 14:47, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Of course the sanity of a society that practically regards uncontrolled access to lethal weapons as a constitutional right is beyond question ... Gandalf61 (talk) 09:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

If my time machine ever gets back from the shop, I'll be sure and go tell the Founding Fathers to reword the second amendment. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

This is becoming offtopic debate. The "question the sanity" comment is what was challenged, rightly, and is what has led us to this. Laws enacted in the 18th century don't need time machines to overturn or amend. You remain on debating ground, rather than the factual required by the Ref Desks, please stop it. --Dweller (talk) 13:24, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

And likewise I had challenged Aspro's ridiculous, insulting comments. Go yell at him instead. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:07, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

@SteveBaker, it looks like the M16 rifle but a bit smaller and more modern looking (looks more silver than dull). @Aspro the bank guards usually have shotguns or rifles but mall guards only have black batons. The rest of the guards have small arms. The armored van belongs to a bank if it helps clarify things.--Lenticel ^(talk) 10:03, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

The shortened variant of the M-16 is the M4 carbine. - Finlay McWalterჷTalk 10:09, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

The finish of the gun, and its apparent modernity, doesn't help identify its basic model very well - a basic pattern like the M4 is made for decades, by different manufacturers and for different markets, and can have all kinds of rails and accessories attached to it, depending on its role. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 10:32, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Would it not be an M4A1, usually carried by special forces, as it's smaller and easier to bring up from behind? The extending stock makes it easier to aim at long range, but that would not be necessary in a close combat situation. Far less cumbersome than an M16, and only weighs 3KG. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:40, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it kind of looks like this File:CQBR-alone.jpg but more silvery. I wish that I have taken a pic but I think it won't be a good idea back then.--Lenticel ^(talk) 12:02, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

The only 'button' I know on the right hand side of that gun is the safety switch. There are three settings - safe (as in, it won't fire), semi-auto, and auto'. If he's playing around with that with his index finger (trained soldiers will often use there middle finger as the trigger finger in order to operate the saftey switch with the index finger), then I don't think it was safe. If he is that nervous in the first place, he should not be carrying an automatic weapon. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:50, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

People don't need to be nervous to fidget. Sometimes just bored. If he's confident in his dexterity and trained to use a gun, seems pretty low-risk. InedibleHulk (talk) 17:47, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I find this calm acceptance that civilian security guards routinely carry loaded automatic weapons in public streets quite astonishing. Is this really part of everyday life in the US some countries ? How much training do you think those guys have ? How accountable are they if they gun down an innocent passerby who puts his hand into his pocket at the wrong moment ? If you live in the US such a country, does it not worry you that you live in a society in which this is acceptable ? Gandalf61 (talk) 13:05, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

We don't often read about armored car guards shooting anybody, probably because people aren't stupid enough to draw their attention. It worries me a lot more that characters hired off the street are given access to top-secret information. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:12, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not from the US, I'm from the Philippines. Gun violence (Well aside from the wars with the rebels) is a bit low. The weapon of choice for violence here tend to be more up close and personal.--Lenticel ^(talk) 13:42, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

There are certainly no security guards carrying weapons in the UK (unless they have an illegal gun stashed in their sleeve) and they are unlikely to have a knife either. They do wear heavy duty padded vests and helmets, but if you steal the money then even if you can get it out of the van then it bursts open and sprays you with a coloured ink in the manner of an octopus or some species of squid but it is much harder to get the ink off. I am not sure why your security guard was jiggling his finger on the trigger of his gun but he may be deep in the grip of Thanatos - the death drive. He could be revelling in the power that the weapon gives him and contemplating suddenly shooting a load of people all around the bank in a bezerk frenzy. Stranger and more violent things have happened, often with little prompting. It seems that this security guard, if this was indeed his intention, on this particular morning allowed order to be restored. Unless you have local news to prove the opposite? Horatio Snickers (talk) 17:51, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

There are, actually, plenty of "security guards" in the UK carrying pump-action rifles. They usually belong to the section of the police who are detailed to provide security to ex-politicians such as those who were Secretaries of State for Northern Ireland. Of course I can't find a reference for this, so you'll have to believe me, but for 10 years I walked past two such people twice a day to and from work. They were guarding the Barnsley residence of Lord Mason of Barnsley. --TammyMoet (talk) 18:17, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

But are they private security guards or coppers who are guarding notable / formerly notable public figures? I didn't realise any private security guards carried weapons. Horatio Snickers (talk) 18:25, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I think he's talking about policemen. In my 1960s childhood in London, security guards used to carry big batons, rather like a US police nightstick. Now they are unarmed; I suspect that there was a test case that found them to be an offensive weapon. A recent petition to amend the law in this respect only attracted 41 signatures. Alansplodge (talk) 21:53, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

When I used to see them they were serving policemen, but not in police uniform. What with all the privatisation about now it wouldn't surprise me if they work for G4S. --TammyMoet (talk) 11:42, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

• Where is the video Lenticel shot of a security guard carrying an automatic weapon which is illegal for all civilians in the US, why have the anti-American bigots here moderated their comments simply to suggest all Americans are beasts outright, without saying it explicitly, what encyclopedic link or reference has been given to this blatant provocation to debate, and why hasn't this thread been hatted? Cowardice? μηδείς (talk) 22:26, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Can you make your points simply and cleanly, without the drama and histrionics? As one who frequently polices other users and deals with their excesses, you ought to be setting a better example yourself. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 22:57, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Uh, I did say that I was from the Philippines and the guard in question is from here.--Lenticel ^(talk) 00:49, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

The problem is not your question per se, Lenticel. It's the usual suspects taking it as an occasion to spout nonsense and their anti-American racism or both. μηδείς (talk) 01:05, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Fully automatic weapons are not "illegal for all civilians in the US". See Gun laws in the United States by state. 75.41.109.190 (talk) 03:11, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

"anti-American racism"? I can't see any evidence of this - merely a discussion about the practice of allowing people (notably civilians) to carry guns. And given that the original question was about that very thing, and some possible unsafe behaviour by someone carrying a powerful firearm, it seems a pertinent aspect of the discussion. Perhaps you're seeing soapboxes where none actually exist? Horatio Snickers (talk) 15:37, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

To address the original question: of course it was not safe. It is not safe in the first place to allow private citizens to carry firearms. (It is not safe to allow police officers to carry firearms either, unless with even more stringent requirements than apply in those countries that already apply requirements.) In any cases where people are permitted to carry firearms in public places, those who carry them must follow safety procedures. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:05, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

There is no reason to assume that this rifle was a fully automatic M-16/M-4. It could have easily been an AR-15 type of which there are literally hundreds of different models many of which are semi-automatic. In either case the switch is almost definitely the fire selector switch. By flipping it back in forth, the guard was taking the safety on and off, nothing else. The gun will not fire by flipping this switch and it would take a pretty substantial slip to take your finger from the selector switch to the trigger. Playing with the selector switch is not a great idea and might be against his corporate policy. But it certainly does not justify the hysterical claims made above. Tobyc75 (talk) 23:19, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

"the guard was taking the safety on and off, nothing else" - while not necessarily nervous, perhaps just fidgeting because "bored". Some of us view this as perfectly normal and understandable and not a cause for concern. Others of us view it as rather alarming. That would be because of our different cultural viewpoints.

To take this further, we need to find additional facts or references beyond our different cultural viewpoints.

Having said that, I think "not a great idea" leads towards the answer "no, it was not safe". --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:00, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Since some of the editors here have answered my query nicely (Demiurge1000, Tobyc75 and SteveBaker), I believe that it's time to close this thread. It seems that I offended your culture. If that is so then I apologize. I am really not familiar with guns nor gun culture in the West. As I said, guards carrying weapons here is normal. Fidgeting guards, on the other hand, is not as we do have a culture bound syndrome on rampages. --Lenticel ^(talk) 01:10, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Do not worry, for you have not offended anyone. Us British and American people, though, will continue to offend each other with our violently (pun intended) different views about the ownership and carrying of firearms. Personally, I find the entire topic fascinating, as I so often walk past bank security drivers (or they past me) as they carry out their duties. Confusingly, I've mostly only held and fired a gun on British territory or its equivalent. When I've been in the USA, I never saw anyone brandish a gun, although I did see some airport officials carried them, and I assumed police officers to whom I spoke had them in holsters too. A man was killed in a gunfight in a restaurant the day after I ate there, and as a British person, this was shocking and amazing. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:22, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Oddly enough, today I was at the bank when an armored truck pulled up, and I felt safer with him carrying a gun. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:29, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

From this I conclude that you, sir, are an American. And I challenge you to a duel with ... oh, I don't have any pistols any more. Carry on, then. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 05:07, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

What gave you that idea? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:55, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

To return to the original question: no. As a veteran, I can assure you that if one of my soldiers was doing something like this, we would have had a talk. Fiddling with the safety of a firearm, loaded or not, is not acceptable. --  Gadget850 ^talk 12:55, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. How would you feel about him fiddling with the selector switch though? It's still not clear (because we don't know what kind of weapon the guard had) whether that's what he was doing...but it seems to me to be a relatively benign thing to do. But, yeah, if he's fiddling with the safety - then that's a disaster just waiting to happen! Some kind of urgent situation arises - he's not entirely aware of whether his last mindless fiddle left the safety on or off - so he either accidentally discharges the weapon when he shouldn't - or fails to fire it when he should! Either way, bad news! The safety should be on, and left on. Fiddling with the selector switch seems unprofessional - but it's not exactly dangerous. I'd still discourage doing it - but it's not anywhere near as problematic. It's frustrating that we don't know which switch he was playing with. SteveBaker (talk) 13:19, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Fiddling isn't always mindless fiddling. It sometimes uses a small (but adequate) bit of thought. I have a habit of flipping and catching things I'm holding when I'm in a sort of standby mode. Sometimes these things are knives and scissors, and the small bit of my brain flipping them knows the risk and quietly tells my hand not to mess up. Of millions of flips, I've only cut myself twice. This guy's fiddling carries a much higher damage potential, but is simpler. If he can remember not to hit the trigger and where his switch (whichever switch it is) should end up, he should be fine. If a guy can't do that much, he probably wouldn't be hired for this job. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:56, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

If he'd been fiddling with his private parts and appeared to be enjoying himself too much, this question would never have made it here because he'd have been carted off by the cops. But fiddling with a loaded gun that kills people - probably only one person noticed or cared. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 23:49, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

weather.com

Has The Weather Channel's website weather.com gone away?    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 13:57, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Seems to be working for me... AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:58, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Websites are often taken down temporarily for maintenance, without anyone bothering to place a template up to explain that to the visitor. I've had some of my WP article external links removed by over zealous editors on the bases that they are dead-links -for that very same reason. --Aspro (talk) 14:18, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

OK thanks. I only asked because I tried it in two different browsers and both say there is no such site, and I have no problem accessing anything else,    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 14:21, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

They have a Feedback and Helpdesk. If you feel irked enough, you can contact them. If it turns out that this was the reason, you could direct them to another site such as [1] for guidance on best practice. Tell them Wikipedia sent you, as we don't yet do a Wikiweather.--Aspro (talk) 14:30, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

This tool [2] can help you tell if a site is down for everyone, or if it's just you. SemanticMantis (talk) 15:21, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, I went out for a while and when I came back the site was ok, so whatever. Thanks folks!    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 18:37, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Do note that if you Google search a location and add the word weather, Google will give you a pretty nice weather report. Not sure on international availabilty but in Canada at least it's pretty neat.64.201.173.145 (talk) 01:44, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Submitting request for article too difficult and detailed. Don't have time to get through it all.

I want to request an article be created about Ted Flowers, a premier parade saddle maker from Madison County, Indiana (Anderson/Alexandria area). His parade saddles are silver laden works of art, quite valuable and in President Reagan's inaugural parade there were some 36 horses that each "wore" a Ted Flowers saddle. He created saddles for the likes of Roy Rogers and Gene Autry and some of his saddles are in museums. I don't have time to go through the myriad of details required to request an article, but I think this person and his works are worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. Is there a more simple way to request such an inclusion? Thank you.

P.S. To demonstrate the high level of his craft, he following link shows a Ted Rose saddle currently up for auction. It is the Leo Carrillo Parade Saddle. Leo Carillo was the actor who played Pancho in the old Cisco Kid TV series.

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/13048087_ted-flowers-silver-leo-carrillo-parade-saddle — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.209.10.98 (talk) 14:50, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

You can begin the process of writing the article yourself at Wikipedia:Your first article. It's much more likely that you, as someone who knows and cares about the subject, will write something acceptable than asking for it to be written by some random person who doesn't. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 15:14, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. But this is a very marginal kind of an article - it's not even clear that Mr Flowers passes the Wikipedia "notability" guidelines (See WP:NOTE). You really can't expect a volunteer to take the time out to research all of the details necessary to come up with an article. Wikipedia works because people have an interest in the subject matter - and of the 40,000 or so people who write regularly for the English language Wikipedia, it would be quite surprising to find anyone who'd be interested enough and has time enough to do that.

So in all likelyhood, if you don't write it, nobody will. If you don't have the time, then the odds are almost certain that the article will never be written. I strongly encourage you to take a shot at it. If you don't have much time to spare, do it slowly on your own user page until you think it's good enough for publication. It's not like it's urgent - if it takes you a year of an hour or two a month - then that's fine. SteveBaker (talk) 16:30, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

whats the name of the movie

i wathced a movie a good while ago and cant remember the name or who was in it but at the beginning a guy gets his throat cut hes at his daughters wedding i believe or some type of event its a waiter/waitress at the event that cuts his throat and nobody notices that his throat is cut at first the guy is sitting at a table and the waiter/waitress brings him something and completes the throat slashing in a very discrete way to where you almost dont notice it — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sjwachinski (talk • contribs) 16:50, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Is it any of these? InedibleHulk (talk) 17:59, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm going to install the OP's question as the classic example of a run-on sentence. Congratulations. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:19, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, that's just an artifact of its not having any punctuation at all, not even a capital "I" for the first person singular subjective pronoun. I personally would log it under "discrete for discreet". Tevildo (talk) 22:07, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

There's a slightly more concise version here. It's the only relevant thing I can find with Google. Annoying, because I sort of remember seeing a scene like that. I haven't seen any of the movies I linked. The victim might have been reading a newspaper, in a daylit windowed room and only wounded. Do you remember something like that, Sjwachinski? InedibleHulk (talk) 05:04, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

That Askpedia question was asked by the same person as is asking this one. --Viennese Waltz 07:36, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, I meant a more concise version of the exact same question. Thanks for making that clearer than I did. Not encouraging when that lone relevant result and two foggy memories are all I'm going on. I want an answer as much as Wachinski now, I think. InedibleHulk (talk) 10:54, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Side Discussion on disabling Caps Lock

I expect the OP's shift key is broken. I wish my Caps Lock key would break off. Thincat (talk) 13:50, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

You can disable your caps lock key! There's a free small program you download that lets you disable and remap keys. Search for "disable key" in the last year or so at the computer desk, copy my name in Greek letters as one of the search terms to narrow it down. Let me know on my talk if you can't find it. It is wonderful! μηδείς (talk) 17:09, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Well, thank you. I'll try that. I have something a bit similar except the key is enabled until you go to the trouble of turning it off. What I really wanted was just to have it turned off anyway. Thincat (talk) 18:36, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

This keeps it off unless you reset it. μηδείς (talk) 18:43, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

That is working fine and it's compatible with another utility I was using which doesn't disable the key until you tell it. CAPshift, this other utility, allows you to highlight, say, upper case text on screen and convert it to title case, sometimes good for creating references. See here if you are interested. BTW, I don't know what the film is! Thincat (talk) 19:31, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Fixing the caps in the OP's question would be but the start of a long process. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 21:36, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Someone hatted this. I have separated it out in case someone goes looking in the archives for it--it's off topic, but otherwise useful and un-objectionable. μηδείς (talk) 18:42, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

This is my first time doing this, so here goes...The name of the flick is called starring Jean Claude Van Damm and Scott Adkins. IMy boyfriend and I watched this a couple months ago. Im a JCVD/Steven Sagal fan. This flick was wild. Im also into bow and arrows. After seeing and then a dose of JCVD was just thrilling. And I liked how his stuck on stupid neighbor candy got his turtle to come out of its shell.. And of course, the brute of a neighbor had no idea who my boy VanDamm was til it was too late. But Adkins has his own skills. The pair have a new movie coming out soon...Or maybe Im a flick airing on satellite soon. Well, its been a few days since your post and you probably have gotten your answer, but when I saw your question, I had to chime in. Check out my movie question -It'll stump ya. Thanks.FredKanada (talk) 16:31, 25 June 2013 (UTC) ===So when I went back and reviewed my post, it hadnt gone well===The movie is Assassination Games starring the before mentioned actors. Im also posting via my touchscreen smartphone which isnt so smart ID10T. LOL.