Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2009 November 12

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November 12

aggressive invasion of personal space

Please answer as fast as possible. I noted that some youngsters, especially immigrants from less civilised countries (like Pakistan), sometimes invade my personal space in an aggressive manner. This is how it happens: They come extremely close, and have their arms streched out to the sides. At the moment that this actually happens I feel extremenly uncomfortable. I normally step back. At the same time I have the desire to strike or call the cops. I do understand that I feel uncomfortable because they invaded my space, and the tendency to step back is a normal unconscious response. However, these kids interpret my stepping back as a sign of weakness. What should I do? What would be the right response? Simply punching them??? What is happing in the mind of the "attacker"? This technique so common among the youth. What are they trying to achieve? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lowlife001 (talk • contribs) 01:33, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Your question unfortunately includes an unacceptable attack against Pakistanis as "less civilized," and therefore should be removed from the reference desk as trolling. Edison (talk) 05:47, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

You obviously don't understand what trolling is; it's the intentional wording of things to make another person angry. In this case it appears the OP was unaware that their text caused such an effect. Now, I'm not saying it's ok or that the question (or section) shouldn't be removed, I'm simply correcting you on your wrongful labeling of the OP as a troll. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.89.85 (talk) 08:56, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Ok, a fast and inadequate answer which others will doubtless improve upon. If you haven't already, read our article on Personal space, which includes the paragraph

"Personal space is highly variable. One factor in the general population density of a society with those living in a densely populated places tending to have a smaller personal space. Residents of India tend to have a smaller personal space than those in the Mongolian steppe, both in regard to home and individual. For a more detailed example, see Body contact and personal space in the United States.

So two factors are likely operating here. One is that those individuals themselves have a smaller perception of personal space than you and are invading yours unconsciously: this may be seen operating at a less overt level at multinational/multicultural parties, where one of a conversing pair with a larger PS is unconsciously backed around the room or into a corner by one with a smaller PS. The other is that crowding someone's personal space is a widely-known technique for intimidating or dominating that person, and since your description implies some potential aggression in the situation ("these kids interpret my stepping back as a sign of weakness"), they're likely doing it deliberately to intimidate or provoke you. How you behave in the light of that is down to you - personally I would try to avoid getting into such situations in the first place, but neither I nor anyone else on these desks can fully appreciate your personal circumstances and provide explicit advice. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 01:56, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I've had to deal with "violations of my personal space" in three main places: at work, at the grocery store, and on airplanes. In all cases, I think it's just because others have a smaller personal space, not that they are trying to intimidate me. My first solution is to put an object between us. At work I might use a chair, at the grocery store I might use my grocery cart, and when boarding and leaving a plane I might use luggage. However, there are times when I don't have an object handy. I then resort to the "side stance". I stand with my legs spread out, with one foot right up against the person or people trying to crowd me. I look something like this at the time:

       O
      /|\
       |
      / \ 
    _/   \_ 

While this has prevented me from having the pleasure of smelling and feeling people from around the world, it has also kept me from grabbing a machine gun and mowing them all down. StuRat (talk) 03:30, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

It also helps to avoid crowds. If the elevator is full, I take the stairs. When leaving an airplane, I let the crowd pass, first, and leave last. If a store or restaurant has long lines, I go elsewhere. And when going to renew my drivers license at the DMV, I'm careful to call in a bomb threat first to thin out the crowd. :-) StuRat (talk) 03:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Also, I would like to point out that the Pakistani people (or any group of people for that matter) are not less civilized. Your customs and my customs are just as strange and potentially impolite to them as theirs are to you and me. If there are certain individuals who are trying to intimidate you, it is because they are jerks, not because of their nationality. If they are not trying to intimidate you, it is merely cultural differences, and if it really bothers you, I would recommend discussing politely that you don't like it when people are too close. If they are really trying to intimidate you, then avoid them or go through the proper channels to stop it. Under no circumstances would I recommend punching anybody unless it is necessary for defense of yourself or others. Falconus^{p t c} 04:25, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Well, trying to intimidate people is more common is some societies than others. For example, this could be considered a part of the machismo which is expected of men in certain cultures. StuRat (talk) 04:34, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

One more point to make. Obviously it's possible that some people will do things like this to intimidate others. But it's also possible that if A (with a small personal space) tries to get into what A sees as a normal position near B (whose personal space is larger), B will withdraw to the distance comfortable for B, but A will see this withdrawal as rude in the same way that B sees A's stance as aggressive. A is thinking "what's wrong with this person, how awful does he think people like me are, that he has to stand way over there?" Thus both people can make each other uncomfortable without either one understanding why. I'm not saying that this does or doesn't relate to the original poster's situation, just that it happens. --Anonymous, 04:42 UTC, November 12, 2009.

In a case where the two cultures clash, I'd go for the "less intimate" solution, as there's far more potential to upset someone if you are too close than if you are too distant. For another example, shaking hands is common in the US and Europe, but if I met someone from another country where this is taboo, I'd be willing to skip this, and do a little bow or something instead. StuRat (talk) 13:58, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Spoken like someone from a country where people's personal space is larger. --Anonymous, 19:47 UTC, November 13, 2009.

I did include the handshaking example, where the other culture is the "more distant" one, specifically to show that it's not a matter of "my way is the right way", but rather a case of freaking people out more by being too close to them than by being too far away. Even in cultures where people are very close, being too close would still be rather upsetting. StuRat (talk) 04:50, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

OP, if your definition of ‘more civilized’ is ‘more consideration of personal space,’ then Mongolia heads the list, and Macao brings up the tail. And, if someone standing nearby with their arms out makes you feel the need to strike out, you seriously need to learn some basic civility yourself. (Just for clarification: you yourself would be the ‘attacker.’) DOR (HK) (talk) 05:34, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

If they are bumping into you a lot, they may be trying to pick your pockets, so take precautions (e.g. jam your hands into your pockets if you can't zip them up). 69.228.171.150 (talk) 07:58, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

It is possible that this is behavoir (particularly the spreading of the arms) is a form of intimidation and is not limited to "immigrants from less civilised countries". If they are obstructing you when you are just out walking, or if it makes you feel threatened, you might be better off seeking the help of the police.

One the other hand, if you are feeling brave and want to challenge such behavoir yourself, why not step even closer instead of backing away. Of course, you will need to be ready in case the intimidation turns into violence. Astronaut (talk) 12:40, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Try commuting on the London Underground for a few weeks - you'll soon get used to not having a "personal space" at all. Alansplodge (talk) 12:43, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Have you tried actually saying you'd prefer them to remain at arms length or whatever? Many poeople can go for ages wondering why people treat them wrong without ever being told it's for something like this. Dmcq (talk) 12:46, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Eating Garlic gives a personal space increasing effect. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 13:12, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps with cultures where it is customary to bathe everyday. Googlemeister (talk) 15:55, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

... and where the garlic eater doesn't do that. Recent garlic breath has never been offensive to me, but what's offensive is where a person eats garlic and then sweats and doesn't bathe. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:17, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

On a side note, it is not unheard for North Europeans and South Europeans talking to each other to do a sort of tango around a room whilst trying to hold a conversation; it's entirely subconscious and I doubt whether anyone interprets it as a sign of weakness. Certainly, in these circumstances, it is merely a cultural difference. I don't have any experience of your situation however. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 20:48, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Which one holds the rose in their teeth ? :-) StuRat (talk) 13:52, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

ok well first of all Pakistanies dont know the meaning of personal space. they actualy take it as disrispectful if you back away, and if your in there country, allways shake with your right hand. they uh.... dont have tolet paper so the left hand is there... yeah. --Talk Shugoːː 18:56, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Safe Deposit Box Theft?

Where can I find out the approximate number of thefts that occur each year from safe deposit boxes in the United States? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.253.80.241 (talk) 01:37, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm having trouble finding an answer too. This article has a lot of talk about the insurance, and WPs FDIC page makes clear that safety boxes aren't covered by FDIC insurance (although banks may have outside insurance). You might be able to extrapolate from bank robberies. If you assume that not every bank robbery results in the theft of the box, then that provides an upward bound on the number. The FBI has a whole section dedicated to the issue. Other governments may have similar statistics. Shadowjams (talk) 06:35, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

About 10 in 2006. Around 26 in 2005. It's in that FBI statistic above. Shadowjams (talk) 06:36, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Bank guard who discovers a man breaking into safe deposit boxes: "Just what do you think you're up to ?"

"Box 108, why do you ask ?". - Snappy Answers to Stupid Questions StuRat (talk) 13:46, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Inter-American Highway

What s the condition of the Inter-American Highway between San Jose, Costa Rica and David, Panama? 190.141.96.115 (talk) 13:27, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Our article on David mentions that the road is popular and a important trade route to Costa Rico. Our Pan-American Highway article mentions that this section is Central American Highway 1, about which we have no article. 75.41.110.200 (talk) 15:29, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

After reading a few travelogues, it sounds as though the road is at least minimally paved for the entire route. However, traveling south from San Jose, you will need to deal with twisty, roughly paved, and treacherous mountain roads. Once you cross the border into Panama, the quality of the road improves, but you may run into construction, as the road is being expanded to two lanes in each direction in Panama. Marco polo (talk) 02:26, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

find a fiction book

i read a book several years back about an american police detective who's son dies of an overdose, he finds and kills the dealer and goes on the hunt for the suppliers, the reader feels for the detective and sympathises with his hunt...ring any bells ? any sugestions. thanks, bob≠ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mazeroony (talk • contribs) 15:47, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Old film OK to process?

I found a disposable film camera in my garage that is about 15 years old. About half of the available exposures have been used. I think the photos I took when the camera was new are ones I would like to have. Will the prints turn out OK if I have the film developed after so many years? What if I take photos today with the rest of the unexposed film? Am I wasting my money by having the film developed? The camera has been in a cool, dark place. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.60.31.103 (talk) 20:37, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

It may work.

Be sure to tell the photo processors about the whole situation, and, if possible, try to go to a place where the people actually know about photography, like a camera store. (ie: Not the drug store.) If you can find a place that caters to professionals that'd be best. They may be able to tinker with the chemistry to increase the likelihood of success. APL (talk) 20:45, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

There is likely to be a color shift, but with color negative film, that can be corrected automatically in the printing and further in Photoshop. There is likely to be some fogging of the film which would reduce contrast. Unless it was stored in a very hot place, you are likely to get ok photos from it. I would not bother taking more exposures on the disposable camera, because you would pay for expensive processing of impaired film. I have developed film (black and white) which was over 40 years old and it had some recognizable images. Go for it. I would just take it to the regular 1 hour processing place. Edison (talk) 00:51, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

If they don't, for some reason, have the equipment to process it, they will usually just mail it off to a facility that does. It takes a little extra time but I don't think it is otherwise much more expensive. I haven't dealt with real film for awhile, though, so maybe things have changed since I last did. --Mr.98 (talk) 03:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

A disposable camera from 1994 is unlikely to have a film format a 1 hour shop is not set up for. Edison (talk) 05:29, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Your double negative confuses me. Do you mean they will be able to develop it ? StuRat (talk) 13:41, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

I think it would be 35mm film inside the disposable, but I am unaware of a film format change in the last 15 years. The images may be lower contrast and with muddy color, but if it is the last picture of Grandma or new pix of the offspring when they were toddlers, it would be nice to have them. Edison (talk) 15:04, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

The film is almost certainly C-41 process, which is the current color negative process, and has been since the early 1970s. You should be able to find a "C-41" marking on the camera. As long as it is C-41, any lab should be able to process it. A professional lab, like A&I, may do a better job printing the images, by manually correcting for color balance and exposure shifts that may have occurred. Drug store labs usually just let the machine run on automatic. Rocky Mountain Film specializes in processing old film, but may be overkill for your situation—they'll handle obsolete processes (like C-22) and formats (like Disc film). -- Coneslayer (talk) 15:17, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

What a wonderfully nostalgic question/topic. I hadn't thought about C-22 or Disc film in ages. Thanks for the memories.Chief41074 (talk) 16:24, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

And the usual warning goes with film: before you develop it be sure you don't have any pics of kids in the tub, or you might be arrested, have your kids taken away, and be branded a sex offender for life. StuRat (talk) 18:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Architect that preferred to live with his clients prior to design their residences

I heard of a Contemporary Architect that liked to live with his clients, in their present homes, before designing clients' new resedences. This was supposedly to learn more about his clients' tastes, habits, likes and dislikes, etc...

I would like to know his name

Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.120.32.38 (talk) 22:15, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

My guess is Le Corbusier. --Omidinist (talk) 04:39, 13 November 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps he just wanted free bed and board for a while.--88.109.19.101 (talk) 08:58, 13 November 2009 (UTC)