Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2024 June 19

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June 19

What proportion of people in the world have less than 127 different persons within the 7 consanguinities?

A person, his/her parents, his/her grandparents, his/her great-grandparents, his/her great-great-grandparents, his/her great-great-great-grandparents, and his/her great-great-great-great-grandparents, with 7 consanguinities, adding up to 2^7-1 = 127 different individuals, a person usually has 127 different persons within the 7 consanguinities, but some person has less than 127 different persons within the 7 consanguinities (this is because consanguine marriage), what proportion of people in the world have less than 127 persons within the 7 consanguinities? Also, what is the minimum number of persons within the 7 consanguinities such that there is a known person (may be in history) to have? 218.187.65.229 (talk) 02:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

You're in the wrong place; this is the language desk. That being said, see Pedigree collapse for help with your last question. Clarityfiend (talk) 02:51, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, wrong place, please remove. 218.187.65.229 (talk) 02:53, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I have re-asked in the correct place. 218.187.65.229 (talk) 02:55, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I saw that article, but the graph does not show all persons in 7 consanguinities and only show all persons in 5 consanguinities, thus I cannot find the answer. 218.187.65.229 (talk) 02:58, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Different words for metro (public transport system)

How did English end up with so many words for metro, as in, the public transport system (rapid transit)? I thnk the generic term metro or underground is used in the UK, Australia and while the USA uses subway. However, when talking about the system locally, it gets different. In the UK, we have three metro systems, but only one of them is known as the 'Metro'. That is the Tyne and Wear Metro, in Newcastle upon Tyne. Meanwhile, the one in London is the 'Underground', hence the name London Underground alongside (colloquially) the 'Tube'. But guess what its called in Glasgow. You may think of Metro, Underground or even the Tube, but you would be surprised its none of them. Its... the Glasgow Subway. So in summary:

• London - Underground
• Glasgow - Subway
• Newcastle - Metro

But for the US, its mostly subway except in the case of the Washington Metro (like the Glasgow Subway, but the other way round), and the Chicago "L". But its even crazier. You have the Hong Kong MTR (Mass Transit Railway), Singapores MRT. In Europe, mostly Metro.

In short, the general terms are: metro, subway, underground and maybe rapid transit? while locally, it can have its own, like the Tube and the MTR in London and HK respectively.

JuniperChill (talk) 19:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

And the question is . . . [?]

Assuming its something like "What are some unique names for various metropolitan areas' public transportation systems?"

• See: List of United States rapid transit systems --136.54.106.120 (talk) 23:10, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

An underground railway (Underground), Untergrundbahn (U-Bahn) or subterranean railway (Subway) are of course the same thing. The Chicago L is elevated, so it can't be called a subway. Although parts of the NY Subway and London Underground are elevated too, but at least those systems began underground. Metro comes from metropolitan railway, calqued into French as chemin de fer métropolitain, shortened to métro and borrowed back to English (and many other languages). That's a city railway without making any claims about its vertical alignment. Similar for the German Schnellbahn/Stadtschnellbahn/Stadtbahn (S-Bahn, not to be confused with Straßenbahn, which is a tramway/streetcar, not to be confused with an aerial tramway ... I'm diverging). Berlin even has both systems (U-Bahn and S-Bahn) side-by-side, and for the user there's no real difference. In any case, all of these systems are fully grade separated from road traffic, which isn't necessarily the case for the term "rapid transit". There are hybrids though, running part of their line as a tram or ordinary train (with level crossings), then switching to metro-like operation.

There are no exact definitions for these terms. It's mostly a matter of what term was best from a PR point of view for their proponents to get approval from the city counsel.

In railway related terminology, the differences between British and American are remarkably large.

BTW, the London Tube originally referred strictly to the small-bore tunnels of the deep-level lines. Those with trains with a roof so low that you can barely stand, but at the same time so overcrowded that you can rarely sit. PiusImpavidus (talk) 11:21, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

The ever-entertaining (WP:OR) Jago Hazzard discusses this issue in the video Underground, Tube, Subway or Metro?. On the whole, he blames London. -- Verbarson  ^talk_edits 22:46, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

References

West Midlands Metro and Manchester Metrolink are both named "Metro". --TrogWoolley (talk) 09:02, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

See Metro#United_States and MTA. Parts of the Chicago Transit Authority's "L" system are underground or at grade level. Other cities have entities such as Bay Area Rapid Transit or BART; Washington Metro; Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority or MARTA; Metro (Minnesota) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:59, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

However, they are not a proper metro system. These two systems are a tram. I think those from Manchester call it the Tram or Metrolink, not metro, which is what Newcastle uses. On another note, the Dublin trams are known as the Luas, which is the English word for speed (yes Irish is a real language but its not commonly spoken, especially for Dublin)

Looks like while metro, underground and subway are the general terms, locally, it can be very different. JuniperChill (talk) 22:27, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

You are conflating two different concepts. 'Metro' – short for Metropolitan – has come to refer to a transport system within a metropolis, which can include one or several different (hopefully integrated) means of travel depending on the area's geography and historical development. 'Underground' and 'subway' refer to elements of urban transportation or routing that are specifically below ground (though outside of London's central area, much of the London Underground actually runs on the surface).

As PiusImpavidus has already discussed, different local names for urban transport systems will reflect what different elements each system uses, which may or may not include pedestrian traffic, motorised road vehicles, rail (on segregated tracks), tramways (tracks running on roads shared with other traffic), overhead mono- and conventional rail lines, funicular railways, cable cars, ferries and others. The names may also be chosen to compare or contrast them to other systems, for cultural and political reasons.

You are trying to impose a logical analysis on pan-national naming practises that were not pre-planned or intended to be consistent. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 151.227.226.178 (talk) 09:13, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

In addition, each transit system has its own name and nickname. In Washington, DC, for example, the system is the Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority, commonly known as the Metro. In Boston, it’s the Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority, which locals call the T. The local name may or may not also be the name of a type of railway that happens to be the dominant or most familiar form of transit. Examples that do reflect the type of railway are Transport for London, known as the Underground or the Tube, and the Chicago Transit Authority, known as the L. It would be neither expected nor useful for all the systems to have the same nickname. John M Baker (talk) 23:43, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

@John M Baker: Transport for London (usually referred to as TfL, not always politely) is not known as the Underground or Tube: it encompasses bus, tram, cycles, light and standard railway (Overground and Elizabeth line) as well as the two types of underground railway. Bazza 7 (talk) 08:55, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, yes, but I'm under the impression that "Underground" or "Tube" might be used to refer to a train that travels underground, even though it also has above-ground stretches. However, I may not have that exactly right. In any case, the main point is that "Underground" and "Tube" refer specifically to the London system (even though there could in principle, and perhaps in reality, be one or more other local systems that use the same nickname). John M Baker (talk) 21:16, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

The London Underground may be a misnomer because just under half of the network is underground. That is why the London Underground is a metro system, but is known as the Underground or Tube. This may be why the term 'metro' may be the preferred word for new metro systems. The Elizabeth line could argugable be considered a metro, especially the new Abbey Wood to Paddington sections due to the fact that it has platform screen doors and has a frequency as much as every 5 mins.

Also note that TfL actually do manage some roads, especially the the red routes (where stopping is generally forbidden), unlike double yellows, where parking is not allowed, but (un)loading maybe. It also oversees the congestion charge and the LEZ/ULEZ schemes. JuniperChill (talk) 21:53, 24 June 2024 (UTC)