Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 October 11

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October 11

Dialog doubt in Serenity (2005 film)

Kid criticized the Alliance treating Independents:

• Kid: People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think. Don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right.

What does "haven't the right" mean? Rizosome (talk) 06:09, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

It's the UK version of what would be "We don't have the right" in American English, if that's what you're asking... AnonMoos (talk) 07:11, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

The proper way to say it is as above with "don't", which is with do-support. Saying "we haven't the right" in correct but an archaism. The show and film used these to make the dialog sound more like e.g. wild-west America.--2A00:23C8:4583:9F01:945E:2D4A:83BC:951C (talk) 10:03, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

On the contrary, in the Firefly future, the Alliance's minions and its urbanized citizens are often depicted as using more formal and British-flavoured English - in this case, the Kid is using an Anglicism. It's the folks in the outer worlds who are given to more wild-west language. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:59, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

"We haven't the right" is not archaic in my part of the Anglosphere. It's a bit formal: more normal would be "We haven't got the right". --ColinFine (talk) 19:29, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

What does "the right" refer to? Rizosome (talk) 10:09, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

It means the right to go into their homes, the right to go into their heads. One way of interpreting it is he is saying they should not be doing these things, even though they do. I.e. the people being subjected to all this should be free of them.--2A00:23C8:4583:9F01:945E:2D4A:83BC:951C (talk) 10:30, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

See right#Etymology 3:

Noun - right (plural rights) - That which complies with justice, law or reason... A legal, just or moral entitlement.

Alansplodge (talk) 10:44, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Why doesn't English have Germanic word for air?

Why doesn't English have a Germanic word for air? In German it is Luft, and in Swedish, luft, and in Dutch lucht, but in English, air. Why it is not luft also in English? --40bus (talk) 10:39, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

We had lyft in Old English. You probably have to blame those pesky Normans as "air" was adopted into English in circa 1300, according to this. However, we have held on to the related "lift" which originally meant "to raise in the air", see Wikt:lift#Etymology 1. Alansplodge (talk) 10:54, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

And why English has very few together-written compound words, such as airpressure, unlike all other Germanic languages? --40bus (talk) 11:15, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

40bus -- A necessary (but not sufficient) condition for an English compound to be written solidly (no space or hyphen between the stems) is that the main stress should fall on the first stem. If the main stress falls on the last stem or word, then it will not be written solidly. AnonMoos (talk) 12:26, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Are there any together-written compound words in English with more than two parts? --40bus (talk) 16:38, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Some words have evolved. Today and tomorrow used to be spelled to-day and to-morrow. Then there's the "obvious": first was base ball, then base-ball, and finally baseball. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:29, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

And why English is only Germanic language where calendar is spelled with c and not with k? --40bus (talk) 15:51, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Probably because it came from the French calendrier, which is also written with an initial c, and not directly from Latin. Xuxl (talk) 16:40, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

German has tended to borrow words with a hard "c" and replace the "c" with a "k". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:10, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Why hasn't English done the same thing? --40bus (talk) 05:27, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Maybe it's because English is not German. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:14, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

The English are mad, mad as dogs in the midday sun. Clarityfiend (talk) 10:26, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Middle English "saw considerable adoption of Norman vocabulary, especially in the areas of politics, law, the arts, and religion, as well as poetic and emotive diction". Alansplodge (talk) 11:46, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Another modern cognate is loft, which has undergone some semantic drift. 110.174.11.82 (talk) 11:20, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

More info about "lift":[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:29, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Do waft or whiff have any relationship to luft? Wiktionary isn't sure but suggests not for the former, and doesn't give an etymology for the latter.-gadfium 18:32, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Those words do not seem related to "luft".[2][3] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:06, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

English has "loft", one meaning of which is to propel something into the air. This comes from Old Norse lopt, related to Old High German loft, whence comes also luft (according to Collins Dictionary of the English Language, Ed. Patrick Hanks, 1979).

The word "luff" (to head a fore-and-aft rigged boat into the wind and spill air from the sails) might also be thought to be related to Germanic luft. One reference (Bloomsbury Dictionary of Word Origins, John Ayto, 1990) suggests it derives from a Dutch word meaning the windward side of a ship; Collins suggests that it comes either from Old French lof, or from Middle Dutch loef, the peg of a tiller.

"Waft" (per Bloomsbury) originally meant "to convey by water", and began to change the referenced medium from water to air in the 17th century. "Whiff" (per Collins) along with "whiffle" apparently arose in 16th-century English and is "of imitative origin."

Perhaps these "-ff-" and "-ft" words are collectively an example of an Indo-European Phonestheme related to air movement, which may have in some instances diverged from an original Proto-Indo-European root and in others have have been morphed to fit into this "sound cluster" or coined because of its influence. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.205.224.83 (talk) 20:49, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Dutch word "Kruibank"

Hoping this will make sense to somebody. This article about a Dutch windmill has had a request for the translation of the image captions, one of which is "Kruibank". Online translators and searches tell me the word means "Wheelbarrow", however the image in question looks nothing like a wheelbarrow to me (See right). I assumed the caption was just incorrect, however a search for "Kruibank" finds multiple other similar images of parts of windmills. Please help--Jac16888 ^Talk 13:01, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Kruibank

Well what it does is steer the mill. If you search for 'steering wheel on old windmills' you'll see pictures of Dutch examples. I haven't the faintest idea what it would be called in English, unless it is steering wheel. Unfortunately Google confuses wind turbines with windmills, which makes searching harder. DuncanHill (talk) 13:37, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Steering wheel makes sense to me, if that's what it does then it seems fine as a caption, thank you--Jac16888 ^Talk 14:41, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

There's a bit about how it worked here, and see also Windmills, Picturesque and Historic: The Motors of the Past by F. H. Shelton (text search for "tail beam or vane"). DuncanHill (talk) 14:54, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Glossary of mill machinery doesn't seem to mention it, nor A Glossary of Windmill Terms. Alansplodge (talk) 18:56, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Apparently, the "kruibank" is technically only the part on the bottom (on which one stands when operating the mechanism). This "Dictionary of Molinology" calls it, in English, "winding platform" and "anchor platform" in different contexts. The dictionary calls the steering wheel itself a kruihaspel, for which it gives the English "capstan wheel, windlass, hand winch". After a look at various related terms in the dictionary, I might suggest "tailpole winding mechanism" or (loosely) "tailpole steering mechanism" for the whole shmear. Deor (talk) 19:22, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

(ec) The word is a compound noun. The first component is the stem of the verb kruien, for which Wiktionary gives these three senses:

1. to push or carry forward
2. to transport in a wheelbarrow
3. to rotate the movable parts of a windmill, e.g. to orient the sweeps to face the wind

Here it has the third sense, also found in the paie of synonymous nouns kruiwiel and kruirad, defined as "the wheel used for changing the orientation of the sails of a windmill". An image can be seen in the article Kruiwiel on the Standerdmolen. This is something else than we see in the kruibank image. It is also seen in an image gallery in the Dutch Wikipedia article, where it is captioned a kruihaspel. The word haspel means "reel". The caption of the image in the article Standerdmolen suggests that a kruibank is the construction holding the reel. This appears to be suggested by the caption of an image in the article Doesburgermolen, which refers to a Kruibank met kruihaspel en loopschoren (Orienting "bank" with reel and walking "shores" – the latter appear to be the slanted legs shoring the construction; see the caption of the image at Standerdmolen).  --Lambiam 19:34, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

The Dutch Windmill by Frederick Stokhuyzen (1891-1976) says (scroll down over halfway):

The turning of the cap by means of the tail takes place on the ground, or on the stage in the case of tower mills with a stage, with the aid of the CAPSTAN WHEEL, i.e. the big wheel with a number of spokes serving as handles. The turning is necessary in order to make the sails face the wind squarely, from whatever direction it blows.

Perhaps the lack of a direct translation is that this means of turning the sails is not used (as far as I can tell) in English windmills. Alansplodge (talk) 11:18, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

I found a definition in a Dutch-language Mill dictionary, defining it as: "small wooden platform, hanging at the bottom of the tail or attached at the height of the munnik, from which the miller can operate the krui wheel with hands and/or feet." (Courtesy Google translate, but untranslating "monk" and "wheelbarrow".) The munnik is the reel for winding the chain.  --Lambiam 13:23, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Just to follow-up then, first of all y'all are incredibly good at this. Second, based on all of your comments, "Steering Wheel" is perhaps too simplistic/not accurate enough for a caption, but all of the above would perhaps be a bit overly detail - any advice for what to use as a caption?--Jac16888 ^Talk 15:34, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Maybe "Platform, known in Dutch as a kruibank, for the operation of a capstan wheel to turn the sails into the wind" (a bit long-winded, but I think some explanation is required). Alansplodge (talk) 17:55, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks--Jac16888 ^Talk 10:20, 18 October 2021 (UTC)