Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2021 May 31
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May 31
editduplicated articles (... the The ...)
edithi, I've been doing some gnomework recently. may I please have a refresher on whether proper nouns with an article that starts with an article (most notably the) may have an article preceding it where it would normally be? I am talking about stuff like Mark Critchley of the The Independent opined that De Gea ...
(link) or ... taking most influence from the The Beatles.
(link), are these typos or correct grammar? ◎ | melecie | t 07:30, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
- No, you don't repeat the "the". There's also the question of whether the "the" preceding "Beatles" should be capitalized or not in mid-sentence. This has been debated extensively and consensus is that it should not be capitalized, per the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/The Beatles. --Viennese Waltz 07:53, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
- There is at least one exception, though: the first "the" is not omitted when referring to the band the The. --184.145.50.201 (talk) 08:11, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
- thanks very much! ◎ | melecie | t 08:59, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
- But then you still have the question of whether it should be "The The" or "the The" in mid-sentence. Applying the Beatles RFC result it should logically be "the The", but a quick scan of the article shows that "The The" is exclusively used. --Viennese Waltz 09:44, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
- At least we don't say "The The The" :). This is not a question of the article being dropped, but of it not being added. These names are proper nouns, which in English (except for certain classes of things such as ships, deserts and rivers) usually get no article; we don't say *"the Boris Johnson", or, for bands, *"the Apes, Pigs & Spacemen", *"the Bad Habits", *"the Captain Phoenix". So why should one say *"the The Beatles"? (There are exceptions, though, such as "the BeeGees", but perhaps it should be argued that the name of the band was "The BeeGees".) What is a more unusual property of English grammar is how readily an article that is part of a proper noun gets dropped when there is a competing article ("a New York Times bestseller"; "one of the most famous Rolling Stones songs"). --Lambiam 16:30, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
- The, the, the, that's all, folks! Clarityfiend (talk) 20:12, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
- At least we don't say "The The The" :). This is not a question of the article being dropped, but of it not being added. These names are proper nouns, which in English (except for certain classes of things such as ships, deserts and rivers) usually get no article; we don't say *"the Boris Johnson", or, for bands, *"the Apes, Pigs & Spacemen", *"the Bad Habits", *"the Captain Phoenix". So why should one say *"the The Beatles"? (There are exceptions, though, such as "the BeeGees", but perhaps it should be argued that the name of the band was "The BeeGees".) What is a more unusual property of English grammar is how readily an article that is part of a proper noun gets dropped when there is a competing article ("a New York Times bestseller"; "one of the most famous Rolling Stones songs"). --Lambiam 16:30, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
- But then you still have the question of whether it should be "The The" or "the The" in mid-sentence. Applying the Beatles RFC result it should logically be "the The", but a quick scan of the article shows that "The The" is exclusively used. --Viennese Waltz 09:44, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
- thanks very much! ◎ | melecie | t 08:59, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
- There is at least one exception, though: the first "the" is not omitted when referring to the band the The. --184.145.50.201 (talk) 08:11, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
- See also use mention distinction, which is very apt here. --Jayron32 13:42, 1 June 2021 (UTC)