Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2020 April 20
| Language desk | ||
|---|---|---|
| < April 19 | << Mar | April | May >> | April 21 > |
| Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives |
|---|
| The page you are currently viewing is a transcluded archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages. |
April 20 edit
Arabic calligraphic tiger edit
The dedication page of Lockwood Kipling's Beast and Man in India shews a calligraphic tiger by Munshi Sher Muhammad. It can be seen here. What does the writing say? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 00:37, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- It's a line of a Persian poem, but I discern less than enough words of it to grasp its entirety. Omidinist (talk) 01:49, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- Have you tried googling discernible text fragments to see if they yield a poetic hit?
- Yes I've tried to no avail. But I will try more. Omidinist (talk) 10:32, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- The original drawing is in the Victoria and Albert Museum, London, along with other Indian work collected by Lockwood in a scrapbook which was donated by Rudyard to the museum in 1917. They have catalogued the tiger as "Calligraphy in the form of a tiger, unknown artist" despite there being a pencil note in the corner saying "by Munshi Sher Muhammad" and it also being specifically credited in Lockwood's book which they reproduce some of on the same webpage. You could try asking them, but they appear to have applied little scholarship to it so far. Alansplodge (talk) 15:50, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- Just noticed that if you zoom in on the V&A's image, there's another scribbled note between the tiger's rear paws which I can't read. The first word appears to be "Italic" maybe. Alansplodge (talk) 15:56, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks - I found a bit more about Sher Muhammad here - he was a former pupil of Kipling's, and went on to be a master at the Sir JJ School of Art. Munshi is a title for a teacher. I have to say I've not been impressed with some other V&A "scholarship" I came across recently - rather a lot of cut and paste (including vandalism) from Wikipedia! DuncanHill (talk) 16:06, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- Kipling himself says on p. 326: "For pious Muhammadans it has long been a practice of Oriental penmen, who are often artists, to weave the fine forms of Persian letters into the outlines of animals or birds. I give an example of the Prophet's mystic horse, Borak, which contains a whole litany of prayers. An elephant on the cover, a tiger on the dedicatory page, and the birds over the monogram of the publishers of this book, are also woven in words of prayer. Every creature alive can be thus represented, and the piety of the inscription covers the profanity of the picture" (referring to Aniconism in Islam). Not much help I'm afraid. Curiously, I'd never heard of a munshi until I saw Victoria & Abdul at the weekend about Abdul Karim, Queen Victoria's personal Munshi. Alansplodge (talk) 16:17, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- In the inscription between the rear legs I read Ilahi baleht to bedar bada. The first word could be a transliteration of Arabic إِلٰهِيّ (ʾilāhiyy), “divine, godlike”, borrowed into Hindi as इलाही (ilāhī). In Hindi the term can also mean “God”. --Lambiam 16:48, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks - I found a bit more about Sher Muhammad here - he was a former pupil of Kipling's, and went on to be a master at the Sir JJ School of Art. Munshi is a title for a teacher. I have to say I've not been impressed with some other V&A "scholarship" I came across recently - rather a lot of cut and paste (including vandalism) from Wikipedia! DuncanHill (talk) 16:06, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- Just noticed that if you zoom in on the V&A's image, there's another scribbled note between the tiger's rear paws which I can't read. The first word appears to be "Italic" maybe. Alansplodge (talk) 15:56, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- The original drawing is in the Victoria and Albert Museum, London, along with other Indian work collected by Lockwood in a scrapbook which was donated by Rudyard to the museum in 1917. They have catalogued the tiger as "Calligraphy in the form of a tiger, unknown artist" despite there being a pencil note in the corner saying "by Munshi Sher Muhammad" and it also being specifically credited in Lockwood's book which they reproduce some of on the same webpage. You could try asking them, but they appear to have applied little scholarship to it so far. Alansplodge (talk) 15:50, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- Yes I've tried to no avail. But I will try more. Omidinist (talk) 10:32, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- Bingo! Thanks Lambiam. It's a quatrain by Iqbal of Lahore: 'Elahi baxte to bidar bada - To ra dolat hamishe yar bada -- Gole eqbale to da'em shekofte -Be chashme doshmananat xar bada'. Meaning: 'May God keep your fortune awake - May fortune always be your companion -- May your fortune flower always be blossomed - and turn into thorn in your enemies' eyes'.Sorry for bad translation. Omidinist (talk) 18:27, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- @Omidinist: Many thanks - by Iqbal of Lahore do you mean Muhammad Iqbal? DuncanHill (talk) 20:28, 20 April 2020 (UTC) re-sign for ping DuncanHill (talk) 21:15, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- Your're welcome, DuncanHil. It was an enjoyable challenge for me. Yes, Iqbal of Lahore is the same person. Omidinist (talk) 02:29, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
- Well done everyone. Final score, Wikipedians: 1, Victoria & Albert: 0. Alansplodge (talk) 11:15, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
- Your're welcome, DuncanHil. It was an enjoyable challenge for me. Yes, Iqbal of Lahore is the same person. Omidinist (talk) 02:29, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
- @Omidinist: Many thanks - by Iqbal of Lahore do you mean Muhammad Iqbal? DuncanHill (talk) 20:28, 20 April 2020 (UTC) re-sign for ping DuncanHill (talk) 21:15, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- Have you tried googling discernible text fragments to see if they yield a poetic hit?
Is 人人上! 人人进步. the right translation of "everyone up!" "progress for all." in mandarin and cantonese? edit
Is 人人上! 人人进步. the right translation of "everyone up!" "progress for all." in mandarin and cantonese? Please help.99.145.194.98 (talk) 09:49, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know what "everyone up!" means. This in turn means that even if I knew Mandarin or Cantonese, I'd be unable to answer your question. -- Hoary (talk) 00:01, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
- Mandarin perspective here. The first phrase makes no sense in Chinese, and as Hoary notes, not really that comprehensible in English either. If you want to say something like "everyone arise," maybe you want something like "人人起来". Maybe something like "人人向上" might reflect the idea of progress that you seem to be looking for. The second phrase is close enough, although grammatically it's more of an active form, like "everyone improve." bibliomaniac15 00:19, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
- Cantonese perspective here. I have never heard anyone say "人人上", though "上" may have a meaning of "joining in (a fight)", but that's really pushing it and is used in with other characters. Bibliomaniac15 pretty much summed it up; "人人进步" is probably more likely to be read as "everyone improves". —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 00:35, 21 April 2020 (UTC)