Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 November 11

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November 11

Per cent or percentage??

If my knowledge is correct, "per cent" was always 2 words until the 1960's; whereas "percentage" was always a single word. Is this right?? Georgia guy (talk) 15:28, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

According to Google ngrams, the usage of "percent" has increased steadily through the 20th century, but there were some uses in the 19th century. According to Etymology Online, "percentage" dates from 1789. CodeTalker (talk) 16:23, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Of course "per cent" is two words. Who ever writes "perannum", "perhead", "percapita", "perse", "perdiem" or "perarduaadastra"? Nobody, that's who. Yes, some people do concatenate it into a single word "percent", but some people also write "alot", "awhile", "atall" etc. This is pure ignorance, not something to be slavishly copied. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:22, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Finns write "perse", but only when they are naughty. JIP | Talk 19:56, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Of course "percent" is a word, Georgia guy. The OED lists this as a spelling recorded from the 1700's, though it does not give any examples before 1900. Jack's first sentence is of course true. His next two sentences are completely and utterly irrelevant to the current discussion. As for his calumny of people who don't follow his pet rules... --ColinFine (talk) 19:55, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

At one time the expression was "per centum", with "per cent." as an abbreviation. Then the period was dropped, then the space, and finally people discovered the % sign and realized that there was never a need to spell out "percent" in the first place. (I'm speaking jocularly here, but I've read enough older publications to know that this has been the general sequence of things.) --76.69.116.4 (talk) 09:05, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Just as the name of the sport evolved from "base ball" to "base-ball" to "baseball". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:13, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

I would guess that "per cent" went out of fashion to avoid confusion, because a "cent" is another name for a penny, a common coin in many nations. So, "per cent" could also mean "You can buy this many items for one penny". Of course, these days, you can't buy much for a penny, but that wasn't always the case. See penny (unit). SinisterLefty (talk) 20:55, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Checking Newspapers.com for "per cent" vs. "percent" from 2000 to date, "percent" occurs about 10 times as often. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:45, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

• Comparing the two words in the corpus, it seems that since about 1971, the favored form is "percent" over "per cent". --Jayron32 13:03, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

• Also note that any two words used in conjunction (in order) tend to be joined into a single word, over time. For example, "anybody". And the more often they are used together, the more quickly they may tend to be joined. SinisterLefty (talk) 13:53, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

• Cannot. --Jayron32 19:39, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Note that the two parts have tended to be separated in recent times. However, most don't realise that "cannot" and "can not" mean quite different things. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:19, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

How so? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:33, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

User:JackofOz, please explain how "can not", "cannot" and "can't" could possibly mean different things. JIP | Talk 11:17, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

I'm not JackofOz but: "I cannot sleep" means that I am unable to sleep, "I can not sleep" means that I have the option of staying awake. Admittedly this second example would usually have a shift in tone to emphasize the difference, but that doesn't work in print. --Khajidha (talk) 12:14, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

• "Cannot" is the straight negation of "can". Example: I can swim the length of the pool, but I cannot swim around the world.

• "Can not" is a different kettle of fish. She says: I wish you'd stay home and keep me company tonight, rather than going to the pub with the boys. He replies: Well, I can not go to the pub, but if I stay home I'm watching the ball game. She says: I'm filing for divorce tomorrow. "Not go to the pub" is the object of "can"; even though it's expressed in the negative, it's still something he can do. It's another way of saying "Well, I can stay home tonight, but ...". In this context, "cannot" would be completely wrong.

• I never mentioned "can't", but it's an abbreviation for "cannot". It certainly is NOT an abbreviation for "can not". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 12:18, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Can you all find any source for the claim that "cannot" and "can not" are two different things? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:25, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

wikt:cannot pretty much says they mean the same thing. JIP | Talk 12:27, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Don't know about a source, I just know that I have encountered (and even used) the distinction. --Khajidha (talk) 12:45, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Indications are that the "can not" is used in situations where it's useful to separate them, but that otherwise "cannot" and "can not" are the same thing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:28, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

They're clearly not "the same thing", just as "a lot" and "alot" are not the same thing. They might be used to mean the same thing, but they're spelled differently. Spelling is important. Spelling matters. No dictionary in the world says that "alot" is a valid word, even though its existence is beyond doubt. There should be a Commission of Inquiry to determine why people join words that should be separate, and separate words that should be joined. The world is full of rebel and know-nothing spellers. Are we to be led by such advocates of ignorance? Not this little black duck. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:26, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

I still want to be sure here, especially because I'm not a native English speaker. Do "cannot" and "can not" mean the same thing or not? JIP | Talk 20:42, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

As is quite often the case in the English language, yes, and no. [1] suggests that they may. But, as Jack has pointed out already, "can not" has meaning which "cannot" does not have. Bazza (talk) 20:54, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

No. No one has yet cited any source (other than personal opinion) that they are different. Your link demonstrates, as with other sources, that they are the same thing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:06, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

It's not as simple as that, he patiently explained. There are some cases where the two are used interchangeably, but other cases where they most definitely cannot be so used. As with its and it's, it's best to keep them separate. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:23, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Why should I believe you instead of the sources? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:28, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

[2], [3], [4]. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:38, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

(You're welcome. Don't mention it.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:53, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

There's no such word as "alot", except in erroneous construction.[5] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:22, 14 November 2019 (UTC)