Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2019 December 1

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December 1

Polish word ułanian

How is this pronounced or more specifically is the sentence 'a ułanian hat' or 'an ułanian hat? Sun Creator^(talk) 01:32, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

If you're using it in an English sentence, then it would be more normal to use the English spelling uhlan. And I wonder if "ułanian" is even a Polish word (as opposed to a hybrid of a Polish word with English adjective ending). But the spelling "u" meaning the sounds "yoo" (IPA [juː]) is rather specific to English, and so would not occur in the Polish pronunciation of ułan... AnonMoos (talk) 10:11, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Depends on how you choose to pronounce uhlan, which article suggests you have a choice; as does [1] and [2]. Whether to use "a" or "an" will depend on that choice. As described in their article, use "an" if you like plain "OO...", or "a" if you prefer "YOO...". Bazza (talk) 10:52, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

The headgear traditionally worn by uhlans and lancers is generally referred to in European armies as a czapka (meaning "cap" in Polish), but the poles would call it a rogatywka. Alansplodge (talk) 12:28, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

@AnonMoos: You guess right, 'ułanian' does not exist in Polish. An appropriate adjective is 'ułański' (masc.) or 'ułańska' (fem., both singular). Alas, the linked wiktionary page does not give a pronunciation for it. --CiaPan (talk) 12:40, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Polish phonology suggests that it is like "oo" in "book". Alansplodge (talk) 13:00, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

@Alansplodge: As a native-speaker of Polish I can confirm the Polish 'u' is close to OO and nothing like YOO (or 'you'). However, as a non-English speaker I can only share my feeling that Polish 'u' is shorter than usual English 'oo' - in pl. 'stuk' it sounds like 'oo' in en. 'book', but it lasts like 'o' in en. 'knock'. --CiaPan (talk) 13:12, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. It's currently used in 1st Uhlans Regiment of Polish Legions. I figure the word is misused in that article and the correction woud be to use 'an uhlan hat'. Sun Creator^(talk) 16:24, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

@Sun Creator: Thank you for implementing the fix in the page (Special:Diff/928896618). --CiaPan (talk) 12:53, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Literal translation of "Merry Christmas" into Hawaiian

What is the literal translation of "Merry Christmas" into Hawaiian?? (That is, not the English phrase rounded to the nearest Hawaiian approximation.) Georgia guy (talk) 21:20, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

So you're saying not "Mele Kalikimaka"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:05, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Possibly Hauʻoli Kalikimaka which is Happy Christmas. Similar phrase is Hau'oli lā hānau (Happy Birthday). There is no direct translation for Christmas since it is a foreign concept. KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:09, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

This[3] has various holiday phrases. It's clear that, as Kavebear notes, there is no literal translation for Christmas. They could have said Hau'oli instead of Mele, but just as in English, we don't say Happy Christmas very often, especially when followed by Happy New Year. [The only examples I can think of in English are the Night Before Chistmas poem and the Lennon/Ono song.] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:13, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Late 19th century sources also used Karikimaka [4] [5].KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:15, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

The sources I've seen on Google say that "r" is not part of Hawaiian pronunciation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:19, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Not exactly. "B", "t", "v" and "r" were removed by the missionaries who created the written language but they existed in the spoken language. Example Honolulu was once Honoruru. "Kristo" [6] was one of the only terms the missionaries left with two consonants. KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:28, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

"we don't say Happy Christmas very often" I think some of my British acquaintances would dispute that. --Khajidha (talk) 12:09, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

I'd be delighted to see some examples. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:41, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

Well, here's an example from British fiction: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPd9ASpMppc --Khajidha (talk) 13:11, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

And here's an AMERICAN musical example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djqvJLoqT0U --Khajidha (talk) 13:12, 3 December 2019 (UTC)

You can also use technically use "Hau'oli lā hānau e Kristo (Happy Birthday to Christ).KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:30, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Seems like a transliteration of the Latin-based Jesu would have worked. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:41, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

It is written as Iesū Kristo in full at time. I imagine Christian generally use Christ more than Jesus. KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:48, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

It depends on who you listen to. But there's one thing that's missing. Is there any Hawaiian equivalent to the word "mass", which basically means a religious gathering (especially Catholic) with Eucharist aka Communion? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:10, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Mass would be meka or pule meka[7] while Eukalikia is Eucharist [8]. Communion translates as 'Aha'aina a ka Pelena (Feast of the Bread) [9]. Early Protestant missionaries would have called it the Lord's Supper ('Aha'aina a ka Haku) [10]. KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:46, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Here is a source that talks about historical usage of the word Kalikimaka [11]. Variants included Keristemasa or Kerisetemasa which were first used in hymn books of the Anglican priests sent to Hawaii during Kamehameha IV's reign. The Calvinist missionaries of early Hawaii didn't celebrate Christmas. Below is a list of more historical variants. KAVEBEAR (talk) 22:28, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Newspaper articles on the history of the term and phrase. Two early example were "Aloha Karismasa Oukou" in 1876 and "Aloha Karikimaka" in 1883 which gives the OP a modern option of "Aloha Kalikimaka":

• "Kalikimaka Is Word for Christmas in Hawaii". The Honolulu Advertiser. December 25, 1950. p. 23.
• "A King Hymning the Nativity of a Babe". The Honolulu Advertiser. December 24, 1968.
• "Mele Kalikimaka". Honolulu Star-Bulletin. December 24, 1972. p. 6.
• "How it became 'Mele Kalikimaka' in Hawaii". The Honolulu Advertiser. December 24, 1983. p. 9.