Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2016 September 26

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September 26

æøå

Was there ever the custom in the German language to translitterate Norwegian, Danish and Swedish names, especially place names, changing the letters ‘’’æ’’’, ‘’’ø’’’, ‘’’å’’’ into native German ones (such as, I don’t know, æ > ä, ø > ö, å > ah)? Thus, for example, writing Tromsø as Tromsö. --188.218.117.245 (talk) 18:51, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

ø > ö is (still) fairly common, for example Malmö for Malmø. Rdgs ✦ _hugarheimur 19:50, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

But Malmö is the Swedish spelling of the Swedish city called Malmö, so perhaps that's not a great example. DuncanHill (talk) 23:42, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

If å is a long awe, as in long then "ah" makes no sense unless you have the caught-cot merger. μηδείς (talk) 00:37, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

(EC) Soooo, I’d better come up with an example that’s actually Danish or Norwegian, then ;o) I can think of Helsingör for Helsingør, which was used by Tucholsky in Schloß Gripsholm. Googling for Tromsö also gives at least some results. Rgds ✦ _hugarheimur 00:54, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

I don't know about "ever," but Swedish ångström is das Ångström in modern German. —Stephen (talk) 06:42, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

A map from 1838, when Duchy of Schleswig was still German, mentions Møgeltønder as Mögeltönder and Rømø as Römö, even though the corresponding German names had been Mögeltondern and Röm. Yet, Løgumkloster is mentioned as Lügumkloster, Sønderborg as Sonderburg, Åbenrå as Apenrade, and Gråsten as Gravenstein, -- which are the actual German names. Another map, from 1650, includes Scherrebeck for Skærbæk, Mecltonder for Møgeltønder, Rom for Rømø, Löhmcloster for Løgumkloster, and Sonderborg for Sønderborg. Just shows how non-trivial the transliteration was. --217.140.96.140 (talk) 08:37, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Amazon.de lists Bjørnstjerne Bjørnson as "Björnstjerne Björnson", and alternates between the Norwegian spelling and "Kjaerstad" for Jan Kjærstad. For Karl Ove Knausgård, only the Norwegian spelling is used. --82.164.37.199 (talk) 21:21, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Etymology of French word "Gare"

What is the origin of the French word "gare"? It means train station, but doesn't seem to relate to a recognizable word in another language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.251.71.248 (talk) 23:02, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

Looking at gare and following a few of the links, it seems that it may be adapted from a nautical meaning involving where ships congregate, and are, protected(?) I guess. That links to garer, which seems to be from Occitan garar, meaning to be on one's guard. I'm not very confident of this. --Trovatore (talk) 23:21, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

My Petit Robert agrees that gare comes from garer. The first sense it describes is indeed the nautical: “Bassin, élargissement d’un course d’eau navigable où les bateaux peuvent se croiser, se garer.” The original meaning in the rail context was “Emplacement … pour le croisement des trains”—a railway siding—but expanded to include the associated buildings & loading facilities. Under garer, however, it doesn’t say anything about Occitan; its etymology is “en Bretagne (1180), varer; frq. °warôn « avoir soin »”, hence presumably related to garder and English guard, but perhaps more in the sense of ‘to keep (aside)’ than ‘to defend’.—Odysseus1479 01:34, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

So a shelter for vessels/vehicles, deriving from some cognate of "guard"-- thank you both. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.251.70.126 (talk) 02:05, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Check out the origin of "garrison" and see if it seems related.[1] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:51, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Yes, gare from wikt:garer, q.v. The word garrison is from wikt:guérir, wikt:guérison. —Stephen (talk) 06:53, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

The same origin is attested for wikt:garage, yielding a recognizable word in another language. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 12:10, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

As for releated words in other languages, see this entry from the table of Indo-European roots at the American Heritage Dictionary site. The root is wer-, meaning "cover"; and, as well as garage, related words in English include ambarella, aperient, aperitif, aperture, barbican, cover, garment, garnish, garnish., garniture, garret, garrison, guaranty, kerchief, operculum, overt, overture, pert, salwar, warn, warrant, warrantee, warranty, warren, wat, and weir.

I wondered if it was also connected to guard and/or yard (as in a rail yard or back yard), because I remembered seeing a form like gard or gård in Norwegian that seemed to have a meaning like "yard", but the AHD says that guard comes from a different Indo-European root also spelled wer- (meaning "perceive" or "watch out for", and connected to aware, ward, warden, etc.), and "yard" from a root gher- (meaning "grasp" or "enclose", and connected to gird, girdle, girth, orchard, etc.). So never mind those two; apparently they're irrelevant. --69.159.61.230 (talk) 20:32, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Indeed, wikt:gård is Danish / Norwegian / Swedish for "yard", while wikt:vård is Swedish for "guard". --82.21.98.168 (talk) 20:46, 28 September 2016 (UTC)