Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 December 21

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December 21

Minimal-maximal condition

Is there a hypothesis about syntactics that is supported by "minimal-maximal condition"?

No answer required.

Like sushi 49.135.2.215 (talk) 01:07, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

What does this phrase mean?

I was reading an article. To give some context, the article discusses the pro's and con's of an actor working through an agent to find work (as opposed to getting acting jobs on his own). The article contained the following: One of the nice things about having [agency] representation is that you don't have to negotiate your own [pay] rates, which can be one of the more difficult aspects of getting your own bookings. As my first agent told me years ago in response to a question about what my rate would be for a [TV] commercial campaign: "let Jesse rob this train." My question is: what is that last part supposed to mean? The quote of "let Jesse rob this train". I can't understand what the author is saying. Can someone paraphrase it? The only thing I can think of is some reference to Jesse James and train-robbing in the old days of the Wild West. But -- even if that is the correct reference -- I am still not sure what is being said or what point is being made. Thanks. 2602:252:D13:6D70:9153:6944:89B5:F0A2 (talk) 02:15, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I have not heard the expression before, but it would seem to be a metaphor meaning that it would be desirable to leave the negotiating to the agent, on the basis that the agent is a specialist and negotiation is the agent's area of expertise. Peter Grey (talk) 03:30, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

It may have something to do with a song called "Let Jesse Rob This Train". I haven't listened to it, but it's a starting point.

(Extra bonus points for correctly identifying which of the singers found on this google search was born on exactly the same day as I was. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 05:05, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Oh, yes, it's a nice step forward (btw not "this train" but "the train"). So the agent simply means: "Let Jesse (=the agent) rob (=get) the train (=the highest pay)". The agent knew the song and used it as a metaphor. Simple, isn't it? HOOTmag (talk) 07:37, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, but note that "rob" implies that the agent is able to get more than the actor is actually worth, perhaps by lying, blackmail, or some other unethical and possibly illegal means. Of course, if the actor is not aware of the methods, then they can't be held legally responsible. StuRat (talk) 07:50, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Excellent. HOOTmag (talk) 07:53, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps, but there's no reason to go to that extreme; experienced negotiators are able to acquire a much larger return than lay people without the need for underhanded tactics. That is, after all, part of an agent's job and they wouldn't last long if they weren't good at it. Just being aware of the current rates, staying firm, and having patience will all help, but there's probably an inherent skill set there too. 99.235.223.170 (talk) 15:18, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

HOOTmag, some of them are singing a song called "Let Jesse Rob The Train" and other are singing a song called "Let Jesse Rob This Train". Are they the same songs, and if so, what were the original words, and who changed them and why? The OP's query was about "this", not "the". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:49, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I had never heard of the song before. And I just looked at its lyrics (which are rather nebulous). So, does it all go back to Jesse James and robbing trains in the Wild West? Or no? Thanks. 2602:252:D13:6D70:9D55:2706:817F:DC85 (talk) 16:38, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Maybe the phrase and the song title are versions of 'Let's jess rob the train.' (Let's just rob the train) and have nothing to do with any character named Jesse. To answer the question, my (OR) opinion is that 'Let's just rob the train' here means let's not set a fixed wage or performance fee but let's negotiate our fees for as much as we can get for each performance. Kind of like, 'Let's milk each performance for as much as we can get.' Akld guy (talk) 19:22, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

So, when the agent says to the actor "let Jesse rob this train", the agent is essentially saying: "Just leave it up to me and trust me, I know what I am doing, and I will get you the best salary I can". Is that the gist of it? Thanks. 2602:252:D13:6D70:9D55:2706:817F:DC85 (talk) 04:48, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Yes. StuRat (talk) 05:50, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Name for someone who speaks a foreign language but does not write it

If you speak Chinese as a foreign a language but are totally unable to read or write it, are you a foreign illiterate? --Abaget (talk) 19:00, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

What if you're able to read and write French but not Chinese? I've never heard the expression "foreign illiterate", but if it exists, I would think it means having no knowledge of any language other than your own. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:52, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I've known people who could speak other languages, having learned them "by ear", who are not necessarily fluent in the written version of the language. But I've never heard the term "foreign illiterate". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:14, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

OK, let's forget the foreign illiterate, which is a foreigner, who happens to be illiterate.

Is there a name for a partial fluency, which could even be a native level, without the reading/writing? --Abaget (talk) 21:09, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I think you would say that you're "fluent but illiterate" in Chinese. I never heard of any technical term for this. --Trovatore (talk) 21:18, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

• Look up Oral Proficiency Interview. My knowledge of Spanish and Rusyn is from spoken exposure. My spoken Spanish is natively fluent, but I often find words are spelt quite differently from what I had expected. This is rarely a problem, since reading Spanish is quite easy, and no one reads Rusyn. μηδείς (talk) 22:05, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

I once saw a news story about a child - ten years old - who had taught himself how to speak Chinese, and the news story was applauding him wildly. However, he could not read Chinese, and spoke pinyin as if it was English, so he would be completely incomprehensible to any Chinese native speaker. The people on the news had no idea that this child had taught himself how to speak gibberish. They thought it was Chinese. Typical BBC. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 00:18, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Speaking fo Rusyn, here is the Rusyn wikipedia: [1] Munci (talk) 07:53, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, User:Munci, my comment on Rusyn was basically bitter hyperbole, and I am quite aware of the site, but don't edit it, because what I have learned of the language was transmitted almost entirely orally, and when written only in either Polish or German (or even Hungarian) orthography. Rusyn language publications were prominent in North America up to about WWII, but Warsaw Pact policy was one of forced assimilation (Ukraine) and resettlement (Poland) with Ruthene nationalists (e.g., Theodore Romzha) targetted for persecution and assassination. The language is moribund, and the culture and people survive in diaspora and dying memory. That is particularly bitter when funeral rites speak of "undying memory". μηδείς (talk) 20:45, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

You'll always have element 44. The article omits to mention its application in extreme ultraviolet lithography. --Trovatore (talk) 20:49, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

I understood that it was hyperbole but was not sure whether you were aware of the wikipedia. The Rusyn alphabet appears to be phonemic, so easy to learn. Munci (talk) 04:40, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads-up. But the whole idea of Ruthenian was a matter of fun even in my grandmother's day, with the problem being there was no standard, and that depending on where you lived, your speech was Policized and Russified and so forth. The women she worked with cooking at the local church ran into issues like whether stress was free, as in Ukraine, or penultimate, as in Polish. This led to questions like "De popér dela?" (Where'd she put the pepper?) uttered by easterners being interpreted as "De po-perdela?" (Where'd she fart?) by the westerners.

Nevertheless these dialects shared enough unique characteristics and lacked enough in common with the national standards to hang together as uniquely Rusyn. Of relevance here is that my mother's mother was taught to write standard Russian, while her father's father wrote using Polish orthography, and the Old-Slavonic church liturgy (in the Ruthenian Recension) was written using Czechoslovak-style hačeks. Basically, they were all fluent in a language that no one else either spoke or wrote. μηδείς (talk) 21:19, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

There's the term "conversant in [a foreign language]" for a level less than fluency. -- Deborahjay (talk) 08:24, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

But you can be completely fluent (which generally refers to speech) without being able to read or write at all. It's a little unusual for a second language, because second-language acquisition usually involves book learning — but in principle it can certainly happen. --Trovatore (talk) 09:26, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Consider two aspects that may lead to acquiring a spoken language without reading or writing it:

• Relocating to a country where your native language is unfamiliar to the locals
• The acquired language use an unfamiliar alphabet and you basically need oral communication skills

As a native-born USAian I'm rarely in the first category. The second situation might lead learners to transcribe in their native alphabet (or IPA) rather than tackle the script along with learning to speak and understand oral language. I'm mow learning my fourth alphabet because I'm a visual learner and also edit Wikipedia where proper nouns (e.g. names of persons and places) help navigation when working interwiki. -- Deborahjay (talk) 13:58, 22 December 2015 (UTC)