Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2015 December 17

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December 17

A/an with "herbivore"

The use of a/an with "herbivore" seems to be inconsistent. If "h" is pronounced, then "a" is used. If "h" is not pronounced, then "an" is used. Which is correct, "a herbivore" or "an herbivore"? GeoffreyT2000 (talk) 05:08, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

According to Wiktionary, the "h" is pronounced, so "a" is expected (provided we ignore the debate over "historic" and likewise). I guess, Americans who may (sometimes) avoid pronouncing the "h" of "herb" (and may consequently say "an herb"), may also avoid pronouncing the "h" of "herbivore", so this is probably the origin of the inconsistency you point at. HOOTmag (talk) 07:46, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The answer is both are correct, depending on your particular dialect. Those which have more significant H-dropping would be more likely to use "an". Those that retain the "h" would have "a". Neither is "more correct". FWIW, since Wiktionary is not a reliable source, I checked with Merriam-Webster (someone with an OED subscription could check in with that one), and it gives both pronunciations as valid, \ˈ(h)ər-bə-ˌvȯr\ with (h) indicating the validity of dropping the h sound. --Jayron32 13:31, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

The Big OED (Second edition, not yet updated to Third) has only the pronunciation with an "h", so "a herbivore". Use of "an 'erbivore" in the UK would identify the speaker as French or American (or possibly other regions). Those who "h-drop" in the UK usually say "a 'erbivore" and it sounds very odd to most of us. Dbfirs 17:12, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I think (speculation a bit) that's because in British forms of H-dropping, the H is replaced by a glottal stop; in America this tends to be a simple omission rather than a substitution. The consonantal nature of the glottal stop would indicate that it would take "a" rather than "an". The Wikipedia article on Glottalization mentions it use in place of "T" in some British dialects, but not H directly. Also, the article on H-dropping discusses the variations on "H", including the glottal fricative (which is the common English "h" sound), which may have something to do with such usage. --Jayron32 19:36, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Not in my experience, Jayron32. "Give us a hand" may come out as /gɪvə'sæ:nd/, but that's a contraction in rapid speech. "An 'ot cuppa tea" sounds much more normal than "A ʔot cuppa tea". --ColinFine (talk)

Oxford Dictionaries online has separate entries for British[1] and American[2] Englishes: /ˈhəːbɪvɔː/ and /ˈ(h)ərbəˌvôr/ respectively. Bazza (talk) 18:32, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

I think many Americans, even though they drop the h in herb, pronounce it in herbivore. At least I do. Deor (talk) 23:58, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Oddly enough, I would say an erbivore is herbivorous. μηδείς (talk) 03:52, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

Dropping the "h" in "human"

Speaking of dropping the "h" in "herbivore", I have heard more people dropping the "h" in the word "human" recently. This results in a word that sounds more like "YOO-mǝn". Is this variant also considered acceptable? --Thomprod (talk) 14:09, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Merriam Webster includes it as acceptable. The pronunciation guide says \ˈhyü-mən, ˈyü-\ indicating both variants as acceptable. Oxford Dictionaries (not the same as the full OED, but is published by the same company), also notes /ˈ(h)yo͞omən/ indicating the optional "h" sound. --Jayron32 14:30, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Oxford Dictionaries online combines American and British usage. The Big Oxford (3rd Edition September 2009) clarifies that it is only in American English that the "h" can be dropped. Dbfirs 17:05, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Dbfirs. The first time I heard it pronounced "YOO-mǝn" was about three years ago, but that pronunciation seems to have gained more acceptance recently, at least in the midwestern US and on national broadcast media here. Has anyone else noticed this? The larger question is "Why is that pronunciation becoming more frequent?" It really bothers me in the phrase "That makes her sound more YOO-mǝn. --Thomprod (talk) 21:10, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

First time I heard that pronunciation was Carl Sagan in his TV series Cosmos: A Personal Voyage back in 1980. Mikenorton (talk) 22:47, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

• As far as I am aware, this is a NE American innovation. Donald Trump (from NYC if that needs saying) is parodied for saying "It's Yuge!" My father was actually taught by a nun in Catholic elementary school that saying "h" before the "you" sound (human, Huston) was "wrong" (!). Both of my parents grew up in Philly, but the only person who drops his aitches in my family is my father.

Interestingly enough, the actual allophone of /h/ in this context is not [h], but [ç], which is the sound of "ch" in German ich, etc. Native English speakers don't normally notice this, since [h] and [ç] are in complimentary distribution. μηδείς (talk) 23:54, 17 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I have nothing citable, but I remember Roger Ebert using this pronunciation. He was from Illinois, not the northeast. --76.69.45.64 (talk) 05:11, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

I don't recall about Ebert in particular, but that would not be a typical Midwestern thing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:45, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

We used to have an insurance lecturer from Boston (the original one in Lincolnshire) who used to say "It aint oomanly possible!". Alansplodge (talk) 13:52, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Maybe a cousin to "a policeman's lot is not a nappy one!" ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:21, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

A copper zloty's not a happy one. Itsmejudith (talk) 17:24, 18 December 2015 (UTC)

Youse guys need to be a lot more specific. To what does "this pronunciation" refer in Ebert's case? My mother, my sisters and I say [çju:mn̩], while my father and Trump say [ju:mn̩] I've never noticed anyone say [u:mn̩], Not even Uma Thurman. I won't presume to imagine what Ebert or the knights who say Scouse say. μηδείς (talk) 03:48, 19 December 2015 (UTC)

We scousers say [ju:man]. KägeTorä - (^影_虎) (もしもし！) 08:20, 19 December 2015 (UTC)