Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 May 21

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May 21

mne

Oh, look, another Blake question...

In The Book of Thel, Blake has the following line:

The daughters of Mne Seraphim led round their sunny flocks,

I can't quite figure out what "Mne" is doing there. Modern reprints of the poem commonly change "Mne" to "the," and on the surface that does make the line perfectly intelligible, but Blake's own printings clearly use "Mne". There's no full stop that would indicate it, but the odd juxtaposition of consonants leads me to believe it may have been meant as an abbreviation

I have found one reference to this weird word in an external source: S. Foster Damon posits in A Blake Dictionary that "Mne" is Blake's mistake for the Hebrew בני, meaning "sons," so presumably Blake is talking about "The daughters of the sons of the Seraphim." At least under Damon's hypothesis, Blake was presumably going for "Bne."

I take issue with that argument, though, for two reasons: First, because Blake actually knew Hebrew. My Hebrew is quite poor, but I feel confident saying that no one is going to mistake ב for מ, especially in a word as common as ben. For someone proficient in Hebrew, that's a pretty egregious mistake, and a hell of a big flub for Blake never to correct it in subsequent engravings. Second, while I've admittedly not studied many 18th-century English texts that feature Hebrew vocabulary, I've read quite a few such texts from more recent centuries, and I've never seen בני transliterated as "Bne." I'm not altogether certain I've ever seen בני rendered as anything other than "bene."

Add to that the fact that "The daughters of the sons of the Seraphim" is a really awkward construction for Blake, and I really doubt Damon's hypothesis is correct. Does anyone have any guess as to what "Mne" may mean in this context? I'm particularly interested in any leads as to what "Mne" could conceivably have been an abbreviation for during the 1790s. Thanks. Evan ^{(talk|contribs)} 01:37, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Another argument I could conceivably present is that בני is unambiguously a two-syllable word, a common (the most common?) English pronunciation of בני would be two syllables, thus making the first line fall out of the fourteen-syllable-per-line meter of the rest of the poem, though that would require some eighteenth-century pronunciation that would make the stanza's final line ("And thus her gentle lamentation falls like the morning dew") fourteen syllables, rather than fifteen. Evan ^{(talk|contribs)} 01:42, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

It says here that "Mne Seraphim suggests a hybrid of the classical mother of the muses Mnemosyne and the angelic, inspirational Seraphim of the Bible." 86.169.185.216 (talk) 02:26, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Actually, bene is quite ambiguous syllable-wise: the first vowel is the Hebrew schwa, which is often not counted as a syllable in traditional Hebrew poetry and is, in fact, elided in many traditional pronunciations of Hebrew, hence the common informal transliteration of בני as bnei. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 02:30, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I now see that you realized this point yourself: [1] הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 02:41, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I neglected to remove all the (ir)relevant material from my post. I appreciate your input, definitely! I don't think this is the first time you've corrected my Hebrew skills. :) Evan ^{(talk|contribs)} 02:47, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

I agree, though, that the phrase bene serafim is dreadfully awkward in Hebrew, and "daughters of bne seraphim" is even worse. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 18:45, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

"Mne" doesn't seem to be Hebrew (definitely not Biblical Hebrew, unless a verb form in II Samuel 24:1 which doesn't make sense in context), but it could recall the famous Mene Mene Tekel Upharsin phrase... AnonMoos (talk) 08:27, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, I briefly thought of Daniel's writing as well. The Norton edition of Blake's Poetry and Designs also suggests the Mnemosyne identification as well, but notes that "According to the astrologer and alchemist Cornelius Agrippa, Bne Seraphim are the sons of the seraphim, intelligences of the planet Venus," lending some credence to that theory. I still find it hard to believe that Blake would have made so severe a typo, however. Thanks for the replies, everybody! Evan ^{(talk|contribs)} 16:37, 23 May 2014 (UTC)

It could have been a dual reference, of course. Blake could ave had Cornelius' "Bne Seraphim" in mind, and intentionally have changed the first word to suggest the classical deity's name. Evan ^{(talk|contribs)} 22:21, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

troll as an Internet slang word

What is the meaning of the Internet slang word "troll"? For example, "People don't want to support the cranky commenter, the critic or the troll. Nor do they want to be that negative personality online." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.212.54 (talk) 09:44, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Amazingly enough, we have an article: Troll (Internet). Adam Bishop (talk) 09:56, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

There can be people who do annoying and obnoxious things based on their sincerely-held beliefs. The basic definition of a troll is someone who is not sincere... AnonMoos (talk) 08:39, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Tizi n'Tichka , berber

Two translations are given to the name at Tizi n'Tichka.

• literally: The pastures mountain pass
• Tichka means "its difficult"

The Arabic wp goes with no. 1, French wp too. The german, obviously, attempt "dangerous mountain pastures". Which one is correct? trespassers william (talk) 23:37, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

When adding "Tichka means 'its difficult' and so it means literally a difficult path, because it has so many switchbacks", that editor also included "Source: primary. I lived there for 2 years and traveled this road frequently. I speak Tashlheet." diff. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:00, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. A new day brings its gift. P. 88, Tizi mountain pass . P. 61, Išqqa difficult Išqqa hard . trespassers william (talk) 16:16, 22 May 2014 (UTC)