Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 January 2

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January 2

mispronunciation of /w/ in French

In some English writings, foreigners substitute /w/ for /v/ (e.g. velcome). Is there an equivalent phenomenon in French? --96.40.43.34 (talk) 12:51, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

That's typically done to indicate a German accent (in German, "w" is pronounced as an English "v", and "v" as an English "f"). You don't see it as much in French, as "w" is a rare letter and is often pronounced as a "v" in any case ("wagon" being the typical example). To indicate that someone is speaking with a German accent, a French writer would more likely change "v"s for "f"s, as that would make the accent more apparent (e.g. "Arrêtez-fous !") --Xuxl (talk) 13:01, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

This kind of substitution happens when the speaker's native language doesn't use the sound they're trying to approximate in the language they're trying to speak. German, for example, doesn't use the sound English uses a w for. But French does use that sound - in the word oui, for example - so French speakers have no reason to substitute it for anything else when speaking English. One English sound French doesn't use is th, so a stereotypical written French accent might substitute it with z - "Zat was zen, zis is now". --Nicknack009 (talk) 13:09, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think Germans have trouble pronouncing the 'v' in vous. They have /v/ in their language, and if they have learned enough French to try to speak it, they know that French orthography is different from German. Where both German and English speakers have trouble is with the nasal vowels in French. Germans may also have trouble with the 'j' in jour since that sound isn't native to German. To represent a German pronunciation of bon jour, a Frenchman might write bone chour. Marco polo (talk) 18:09, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

It is stereotypical, though -- see this passage from Boule de suif, where one of the speakers is an Alsatian:

Au bout de quelques instants il dit enfin:

"Qu'est-ce que fous foulez?"

Le comte prit la parole: "Nous désirons partir, Monsieur.

- Non.

- Oserai-je vous demander la cause de ce refus?

- Parce que che ne feux pas.

- Je vous ferai respectueusement observer, Monsieur, que votre général en chef nous a délivré une permission de départ pour gagner Dieppe, et je ne pense pas que nous ayons rien fait pour mériter vos rigueurs.

- Che ne feux pas... foilà tout... Fous poufez tescentre."

184.41.25.218 (talk) 07:26, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Unlike French /v/, German /v/ is actually more of an approximant for many speakers. Producing noticeable friction sounds over-careful or northern to me. See German phonology#Consonants, note 5. So my pronunciation of /v/ might well give me away alone. However, I wouldn't de-voice /v/, except perhaps accidentally at the "ent off a wort" and next to unvoiced consonants or even in the sequence vr for example. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:49, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

German "v" isn't always [f]. It can be [v] in many cases too. As a German, I don't understand the stereotype at all.--2.245.207.42 (talk) 02:31, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

That's right, but the pronunciation of "v" as [v] is typically found in borrowings from Latin, French and other languages that very much belong to the international vocabulary. In native German (Germanic) words the "v" is usually [f], including in stereotypical prefixes (ver-, vor-) and prepositions (von) and basic vocabulary (Vater), and the very name for the letter is [faʊ]. Hence the stereotype. See German orthography#Typical letters. --Theurgist (talk) 04:04, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

I've just found out that there's the article Pronunciation of v in German, which is unsourced however. --Theurgist (talk) 12:35, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

What is the Arabic on this seal?

What is the Arabic on this seal? http://www.cjseg.com/CJS_EmblemS31.jpg Does it mean Cairo Japanese School?

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 13:42, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

(مدرسة القاهرة الیا بانیستر) -- Cairo School of Alia Banister. Omidinist (talk) 20:18, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Surely the last word is some form of al-yabani (Japanese)?--Cam (talk) 21:33, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it looks like an extra-squiggly version of " اليابانية".

So, "مدرسة القاهرة اليابانية". Adam Bishop (talk) 00:45, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's it. Elongation of the ending misled me. Omidinist (talk) 05:47, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you. Added Arabic. :) WhisperToMe (talk) 04:46, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Japanese help: What characters are in this PDF file?

http://www.jsad.ae/gaiyou/map/chizu.pdf What are the Japanese characters in this PDF file?

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 14:35, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

新校舎移転場所/the location of the new school building, 地図/map, 拡大図/an enlargement,　旧/former, 皇太子府の出入り口の向かい側/the opposite side of the entrance of Crown Prince Court, 隣はフレンチスクール...通称Battenのフレンチスクール...です/the next door is a French school, LfTM, aka French School in Al Bateen area, and 縮小図/a reduced map. Oda Mari (talk) 16:17, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! It's for the Abu Dhabi Japanese School. Since it says "旧Umm Habiba Girls School" this means the school is in the former Umm Habiba Girls School, right? WhisperToMe (talk) 16:19, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes. They moved to the building formerly used as the girls school. Oda Mari (talk) 17:04, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! It also means the French school is next door to the Japanese one, right? WhisperToMe (talk) 17:27, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Right! Oda Mari (talk) 05:45, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you WhisperToMe (talk) 04:47, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Adjectives as nouns

In order to satisfy my curmudgeonistic sensibility, I found it necessary to edit: "...to attract the curious." -to- "...to attract curious spectators." Am I being overly sensitive? I tend to reject the notion that "if enough people do it, then its okay"; (this principle could apply to littering or child abuse). Some words with -ic suffixes being used as nouns don't bother me (much), although "antibiotic" [noun] would better be termed "antibiotic drug", etc. At any rate, comments or recommendations are welcome! ~Eric F:71.20.250.51 (talk) 16:40, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Curious people do not necessarily have to be 'spectators', they can also be 'listeners', and 'the curious' is a perfectly good usage of the word. 'Antibiotic' does not need to be more clearly defined, as there is no such thing as an 'antibiotic bicycle', for example. We all know what it means. Check out our article on Nominalisation for further details and examples. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:44, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm confused as to what you (OP) are referring to with "I tend to reject the notion that 'if enough people do it, then its [sic] okay'". Are you referring to people being curious or to people following the normal rules of English grammar (including the nominalization of adjectives)? Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:22, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) ::The context of the edit relates to P. T. Barnum who "had portions of [Jumbo's corpse] separated, in order to have multiple sites attracting curious spectators." Although there is no such thing as an 'antibiotic bicycle', there are 'antibiotic lotions', 'antibiotic soaps', etc. An 'antibiotic bicycle seat' might be a good idea for residents of nudist colonies. Thank you for the link, I'll check it out. ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 17:27, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

@ Aɴɢʀ - Your second option; what peoples not been learned english good, aint no got use for. ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 17:43, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Language changes. If everyone is doing it, than that it what is correct "rules" be damned. No speaks Old English anymore. Mingmingla (talk) 18:21, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Eric F., there was no need for you to make that edit. Using "the curious" as a noun phrase is perfectly acceptable English grammar and has been for centuries. See, for example, The quick and the dead (idiom). Marco polo (talk) 18:02, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Eric, you are contemning a custom of the English language as old as Willy Shaxper and his peers; indeed, older. I suggest a reading of the relevant passages in Fowler's A Dictionary of Modern English Usage. --Orange Mike | Talk 18:45, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)::Thou do what wilt, whilst the decurmudgeonisation of Eric continueth. ~Thank y'all for the advice and comments ~:71.20.250.51 (talk) 18:58, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Does WP grant much poetic licence for its prose? (Rhetorical question)

For the uninitiated and for the curious, there's The Fast and the Furious. Nope, this is perfectly acceptable in English, except perhaps not taught at school, in Germany at least (we were taught to say "the curious ones"). To me, it does still have a slightly old-fashioned, poetic or at least bookish ring to it. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:34, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

That's been borrowed here. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:09, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Now, here's a deal that shouldn't be too hard to pass up!

This advertisement says: "Now, here's a deal that shouldn't be too hard to pass up!" Doesn't that mean that it should be easy to pass up? Bus stop (talk) 19:00, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes. It is refreshing to see such honesty in advertising; reminds me of "...nothing works better..." (okay, I'll try "nothing", instead). ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 19:37, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Chinese Singaporean language Barrier in Canada?

[Title added for readability]

would a chinese singaporean have language barrier in canada? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 119.74.124.102 (talk) 19:30, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Relevant articles include Chinese Singaporean #Language, Singlish, Singapore English and others linked from those. A quick scan suggests that it would depend on the individual involved. In general, there could be some difficulties, but probably not a barrier. ~:71.20.250.51 (talk) 21:12, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

It wasn't specified that the person would be in an English-speaking area of Canada. 96.46.198.120 (talk) 08:10, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

If it comes to that, it wasn't specified that the person would be able to speak English himself. A Chinese Singaporean who speaks only Chinese would probably have a great language barrier in Canada. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:00, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Or anywhere where Chinese was not generally spoken, which is most places in the world. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 15:32, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Note however, per articles above:

• Most Chinese Singaporeans are generally bilingual, whereby they can speak both English and Mandarin or some other Chinese dialects
• After 1980s, all schools [...] began to use English as the primary medium of instruction with Mandarin as a secondary language
• English is supposedly the 1st language and therefore presumably spoken by all Singapore residents
• (etc.) — But, as the article explains, there are caveats ~E:71.20.250.51 (talk) 22:49, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

If that were true in the OP's case, why would there be any question of his getting by in Canada, at least in anglophone Canada?

I think we need the OP to come here and clarify his question. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:04, 4 January 2014 (UTC)