Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2014 December 2

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December 2

vice versa

A long while back, someone (a native speaker, in fact) wrote a sentence like "Do you prefer A to B or vice versa?" I said vice versa was basically too strong for this. The "prefer" bit obviously covers the whole situation. He disagreed. What do you think/ know/ can provide a set of explicit references for? IBE (talk) 03:46, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

"Vice versa" simply means "switched around".[1] So there's nothing wrong with saying it that way, although you could instead say "or the other way around" or even "or B to A". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:14, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

It would be much neater to say "Do you prefer A or B?", but perhaps there was some reason for stressing the "vice versa". Dbfirs 08:46, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

It is a redundancy, but informal writing or speech is littered with redundancies, sometimes, as Dbfirs suggests, for emphasis. At least it wasn't a tautology, as tautologies can introduce ambiguity, as well as ugliness! --Dweller (talk) 10:47, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

To the question "Do you prefer A or B?", there are 3 answer possible, 1)I prefer A to B, 2)I prefer B to A and 3)I have no preferences, I prefer both been equivalent to 3). If you want to slightly suggest answer 1), then you can ask Do you prefer A to B? but then with the answer No, you're not able to know if the full answer is 2) or 3). In this case the full question Do you prefer A to B or vice versa? can make some sense. Cqui (talk) 09:59, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but what if they answer "No, I prefer B or vice versa"? Contact Basemetal here 10:17, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Baseball manager Casey Stengel once famously said, "Good pitching beats good hitting, and vice versa."    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 03:33, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Why are long sentences automatically perceived to be run-on?

Yes, I understand long sentences can be made shorter. But I don't understand why some people insist and are so convinced that long sentences automatically mean run-on sentences.

• Example: Across an ocean, over bumpy mountains, across three hot deserts and a smaller ocean, there lay a tiny town called Chewandswallow, which, unlike many other towns, never snowed snow, never rained rain, and never hailed hail; instead, it rained orange juice, snowed mashed potatoes and peas, and hailed small clumps of baseball-sized meatballs.

My example sentence is long, but is it automatically run-on? 71.79.234.132 (talk) 06:49, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Sounds fine to me, language-wise. The commas and semicolon add enough room to breathe, if someone read it aloud. But I'm having a hard time picturing a small clump of baseball-sized meatballs, and wonder if things of that consistency can be called hail. Some people assume a long sentence is a run-on just like some assume a white guy with dreadlocks knows where to find weed, or a dog showing his teeth is smiling politely. I wouldn't worry about it. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:14, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Long sentences are not automatically assumed to be run-on. A run-on sentence is defined by our article as "a sentence in which two or more independent clauses (i.e., complete sentences) are joined without appropriate punctuation or conjunction". The preceding sentence is long but not run-on, whereas this sentence is: "I run I walk". --172.56.33.16 (talk) 07:29, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I've noticed too that many people who complain about run-on sentences don't seem to know what they are (here's an example). My guess is they're interpreting "run-on" as "running on and on". - BenRG (talk) 09:19, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

a non-run-on sentence
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Though in many natural objects, whiteness refiningly enhances beauty, as if imparting some special virtue of its own, as in marbles, japonicas, and pearls; and though various nations have in some way recognised a certain royal preeminence in this hue; even the barbaric, grand old kings of Pegu placing the title "Lord of the White Elephants" above all their other magniloquent ascriptions of dominion; and the modern kings of Siam unfurling the same snow-white quadruped in the royal standard; and the Hanoverian flag bearing the one figure of a snow-white charger; and the great Austrian Empire, Caesarian, heir to overlording Rome, having for the imperial color the same imperial hue; and though this pre-eminence in it applies to the human race itself, giving the white man ideal mastership over every dusky tribe; and though, besides, all this, whiteness has been even made significant of gladness, for among the Romans a white stone marked a joyful day; and though in other mortal sympathies and symbolizings, this same hue is made the emblem of many touching, noble things- the innocence of brides, the benignity of age; though among the Red Men of America the giving of the white belt of wampum was the deepest pledge of honor; though in many climes, whiteness typifies the majesty of Justice in the ermine of the Judge, and contributes to the daily state of kings and queens drawn by milk-white steeds; though even in the higher mysteries of the most august religions it has been made the symbol of the divine spotlessness and power; by the Persian fire worshippers, the white forked flame being held the holiest on the altar; and in the Greek mythologies, Great Jove himself being made incarnate in a snow-white bull; and though to the noble Iroquois, the midwinter sacrifice of the sacred White Dog was by far the holiest festival of their theology, that spotless, faithful creature being held the purest envoy they could send to the Great Spirit with the annual tidings of their own fidelity; and though directly from the Latin word for white, all Christian priests derive the name of one part of their sacred vesture, the alb or tunic, worn beneath the cassock; and though among the holy pomps of the Romish faith, white is specially employed in the celebration of the Passion of our Lord; though in the Vision of St. John, white robes are given to the redeemed, and the four-and-twenty elders stand clothed in white before the great-white throne, and the Holy One that sitteth there white like wool; yet for all these accumulated associations, with whatever is sweet, and honorable, and sublime, there yet lurks an elusive something in the innermost idea of this hue, which strikes more of panic to the soul than that redness which affrights in blood. Moby Dick Chapter 42 μηδείς (talk) 18:01, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. At one point I placed a non-visible warning on that page asking people to not simply use overly long sentences in the text as a means of demonstration. At the time, there seemed to be a spate of edits there to make the lede something like "A run-on sentence is the kind of thing where unless you're paying attention you don't notice that the words just keep coming one right after the other until the speaker is out of breath and you're having trouble following the thought process of the person doing the writing or the speaking... (blah, blah, blah)" as a kind of ironic way of making the point. I guess we all know better these days. Matt Deres (talk) 18:30, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Two word Russian translation: big baby or overgrown child?

In an article discussing a notoriously mercurial pro athlete, a former teammate describes him as "большой ребенок." Is this a "big baby" as in he was spoiled or is it "overgrown child" as in he was disarmingly naive or childlike? The speaker follows up by adding, "Очень эмоциональный, ранимый." Any help is appreciated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.37.34 (talk) 12:19, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

It may mean both but from the context you gave it's rather the latter ('twould be great if you give the whole interview).--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 20:39, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

English naming practice (has gone mad)

As I know from many languages and cultures personal names mean something significant for a person or a society. It may be a personal characteristic, dedication or praise to gods (God) or saints, invocation against spells or many other things. I think Britons and Anglo-Saxons followed this international pattern. But modern English speaking nations have gone quite a bizarre and extraordinary way. Most of all, what amazes me, are the names from toponyms (place names), I know a lot of people named like Rutherford, Woodrow, Chelsea, recently I've encountered Brooklyn. Then go the names from family names like Wilson or Harrison, but mostly it is difficult to differentiate the two types as many if not most English surnames came from place names like Beverley or Bradley. I can hardly imagine personal names like Irkutsk, Berlin or Warszawa as well as Smirnov, Schwarzberg or Jankewicz, and I'm sure such names are very bizarre for other European Christian nations but not for the English. Why don't they consider such names strange?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 20:35, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

• Berlin (surname) is hard to imagine? Tell that to the many people with it. Maybe you should expand your imagination... --Jayron32 20:46, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
  • No. OP meant as first name. Contact Basemetal here 20:53, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
    • I've corrected to prevent further misunderstandings.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 21:02, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
• In the States, names like Tara, Brittany, Chelsea and Erin are bog-common. Brooklyn is a newer development. Then there are highjacked tribal names (Dakota, Cheyenne and Cherokee); the possibilities are endless. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:11, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I think some modern parents just like to be different and find a unique name for their offspring. The oddest name I've come across is Izaat (several people near where I live, but more than 100 years ago, so no connection with the Bollywood film), and it was a girl's name, so, as far as I know, no connection with the Muslim boy's name Izzat meaning honour. I gather that it was common in the Middle Ages and meant ice battle or something similar in Old Teutonic. Dbfirs 21:29, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

I know an Elly and and Emmy, and am waiting for their sisters, Enny and Oh. My nephew's class is laden with a Hayden, a Kaiden, and a Jaden, but no Aiden. Soon there'll be the boy's name Maiden. Of course, in Germany you can't name your child Berlin. Thank God my parents settled on Phssthpok-Tadeuszka. μηδείς (talk) 21:33, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

While this is surely a good story, it is incorrect. The first name Berlin does exist in Germany http://www.vorname.com/news_standesamt_berlin_maedchen_vorname_maedchenname_berlin_genehmigt_.html. Although admittedly it was unusual enough to be newsworthy. 81.154.81.151 (talk) 00:49, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, 81. μηδείς (talk) 02:44, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Here's an article that may be of interest. Contact Basemetal here 21:38, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Two of my former clients had the given names "Zanzibar" (his middle name was "Calypso") and "Clair de Lune". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:12, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

• It's just a random bit of syllables so people can call for you in a crowd and you'll know who they're looking for. The actual bit of syllables is of no concern. I've been a school teacher for many years, and I see a wider variety of names in a given semester than many of you could see in a lifetime. The more you realize that the person's value is not in any way beholden to the random sounds they use to signify themselves, the less amazing all of this becomes. Take the wider view. It's just a name. --Jayron32 22:17, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Well, sure. But I think Luboslov's question is why "strange" given names are so prevalent in the anglo world (almost to the point that anyone naming their child John or Mary would be the exception) but rare elsewhere. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:44, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

It's beyond banal to complain about how "strange" other people's names are. It's their name, and to pass judgement on a person because you have a personal feeling is rather presumptuous. Grant someone the respect by not pronouncing them strange because you have a problem with their name (not you specifically, Jack, you in the impersonal). Who is to say what is "strange". It's a name, and while significant in many ways to the person holding it, it is not for me to pass judgement on it based on my own experiences and opinions on what a "proper" name should be, and to judge someone "strange" because they don't meet my expectations. --Jayron32 03:39, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I sense you're approaching this in a non-useful way, Jayron. There is no judgment involved. Some names are statistically common, others are statistically uncommon. That's all that is meant by "strange". There was a time before which there were no children anywhere with the given name Madison. Then there was one, and she was unique. Then some others, and eventually almost every second girl was given that name. It's been replaced by Keira, Kayla, Kaylah, Taylah, Kiesha, Keishah and all other possible variants. Then there are the other surnames that have been appropriated for given names: MacKenzie, MacDonald, Robertson, yada yada. Luboslov's question is like: Why is this a very common occurrence in English, but we never hear of a French baby called Dupont or Toulouse, or a German baby called Schmidt or Hamburg, or a Russian baby called Tchaikovsky or Moscow or Molotov, or an Italian baby called Garibaldi or Vercotti? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:52, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I do have a niece named Madison. When they announced she was expecting a brother, I speculated whether he might be named Lexington. μηδείς (talk) 17:32, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

How is it that I could go a lifetime without seeing as many names as Jayron sees in a semester? Do the kids change their names when they grow up and recognize how weird they are? —Tamfang (talk) 23:41, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

It's all to do with the circles in which one moves. School children are obviously of the lower orders, and we sophisticates have the good taste to have nothing whatever to do with them.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:01, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

I imagine that for most parents euphony, auspicious associations and avoidance of the over-common are far more important than etymology. —Tamfang (talk) 23:40, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

If something is "over-common", perhaps it means that it hasn't been avoided by most parents. HiLo48 (talk) 00:37, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Yet. —Tamfang (talk) 10:46, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

The OP seems to be conflating United States practices with those of the English - at first I thought he just meant the language, but "European Christian nations but not for the English" implies he's talking about people from England.

My POV, but people with firstnames like those he mentions are not very common in England. Whilst it's true that Chelsea and Brooklyn have spiked a little of late, those kids are mostly being named after people, rather than places. I've never even heard of anyone called Rutherford, Woodrow or Wilson (although there is a very memorable character in the recent Utopia (TV series) called Wilson Wilson). I have heard of a Harrison but never met one. Bradley and Beverley are fairly long-standing names here though. I'm pretty sure there's a detailed Excel spreadsheet available on the net that lists the number of occurrences of all boys and girls names in a given year, published by the government - in fact, there was recently a mild media storm following a misleading article about the rising number of Mohammeds. --Dweller (talk) 10:40, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Wilson Wilson is also a character in the U.S. TV series Home Improvement.   → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 03:30, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

You mustn't be looking very hard. I pulled up the List of Prime Ministers of the United Kingdom and looked for people whose given name derived from what was originally a last name. The second person on the list is Spencer Compton, 1st Earl of Wilmington and one of the more famous is Spencer Percival. Spencer (given name) notes that it was originally a surname, and the usage transitioned to a first name. In the 19th century. So it's neither recent development, nor influenced by modern American conventions. Oh, and Stanley Baldwin (Stanley began as a surname, see Baron Stanley of Alderley, etc. Oh, and Ramsay MacDonald, whose given name comes from his mother's last name. Oh, and Winston Churchill, who's first name also began as a family name, and likely a place name too. So, before we get on our "look at those silly Americans with their silly naming practices", perhaps we understand a little more about the situation. --Jayron32 15:54, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Never heard of anyone called Wilson? Try Brian W Aldiss. OK, its not strictly a "first" name, but many people prefer to use (one of) their middle name(s) rather than their first, as I myself do, and as one of my grandfathers did.

Possibly (rampant speculation alert) second (third, etc.) given names are subject to a little more variation because parents don't anticipate their everyday use and because they may use them to pay tribute to a relative and may use the latter's surname. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195, "call me 230"} 212.95.237.92 (talk) 13:51, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

My response is going to be completely speculative, but here goes. I think that this has to do with the strong emphasis on individualism in the English-speaking world. It has to do with the idea that each baby is a unique individual and deserves a unique and distinctive name. Of course, parents don't want the name to be completely bizarre, and they have to get the idea for the name from somewhere, so you end up with names coming into fashion for a few years, after which they are seen as too commonplace and replaced with newly fashionable names. However, this trend toward "unique" names is a phenomenon with temporal, ethnic, and class boundaries. And in fact, the OP has identified the effects of more than one development. First, there is the use of surnames as personal names. This is a development that goes back at least to the 19th century and that originated, I believe, in the upper middle class on both sides of the Atlantic. Parents gave sons, in particular, prestigious surnames as personal names with the aim of adding prestige to the son's name. At first these might have been surnames from a maternal line of the son's ancestry. Later, former surnames were used as personal names probably because they sounded more dignified than common names such as "John" or "Peter". Examples are Winston Churchill and Chester Alan Arthur. A separate trend is the use of novelty names, which is more recent, dating to the mid-20th century, and I believe originating in the African American community. See African-American names. These names are more often given to baby girls, but they are increasingly given to boys as well. During the 1960s, there was a brief trend among educated young white people to give idealistic "Hippie" names to children, such as "Sunflower", "Peace", and so on. However, during the 1970s and 80s, the use of novelty names on the African American model began to spread mainly to poorer or lower middle class white Americans. Since then, it has spread slightly up the class scale, though it is still less common among upper middle class or wealthy white Americans. I think that we are hearing that since the 1980s or so, the use of novelty names has also spread to other English-speaking countries. Marco polo (talk) 14:58, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

One of the concepts you are alluding to, Marco polo is reanalysis. Laverne and Leroy come from the French for "the alders" and "the king". This has been reanalysed by non-French speakers giving such names as Latoya and Levon. μηδείς (talk) 21:43, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

Traditionally in England, a son could be given the maiden name of his mother or his father's mother as a forename, to acknowledge the family connection (if the woman came from a distinguished family). That's why the hero of Pride and Prejudice is named "Fitzwilliam Darcy" (since his mother came from a family with an earldom), and probably also where the semi-strange forename of "St. John Rivers" in Jane Eyre comes from... AnonMoos (talk) 00:13, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

You rarely see unusual first names in France (there's was a long tradition of only "officially-sanctioned" first names being allowed, although that's no longer the case), but in Haiti, anything goes. Someone called Marc or Jean sticks out among the Brutus, Roosevelt and other strange names there. In the Hispanic world, Cuba and the Dominican Republic have some very strange names (Odrisalmer, Runelvys, Erisbel...) while Spain, Mexico or Puerto Rico stick to the traditional ones. There are trends within one culture as well: in Quebec, for two hundred years, all children were named from a list of maybe 40 names; in the second half of the 19th century, the fashion became to use the most arcane name of a Catholic saint one could find, a trend which lasted until the beginning of the 20th century. Then, people went back to using a list of "traditional" names, although not as limited as the one that had prevailed 50 years earlier. --Xuxl (talk) 10:25, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Does a Central American Spanish female first name "Usnabí" (a corruption of "U.S. Navy") really exist? Or is that story apocryphal? Contact Basemetal here 10:56, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

There are a lot of Latino names like Usnavi and Shaity and Alita and so forth that are coinages. I have no evidence that Usnavi comes from U S Navy, but will not assert a negative either. μηδείς (talk) 00:24, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

I the U.S., there is a small but significant number of sports fans who have named their children Espn (or Espen) after the television network ESPN. And I recently saw a news story about a girl named Abcde (pronounced "ab-suh-dee").    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 03:26, 6 December 2014 (UTC)