Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 December 4

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December 4

Sung Spanish "muy"

Do you sustain the "u" or the "y"? According to wikt:muy#Spanish both /muj/ and /mwi/ are acceptable pronunciations. If it matters, this is a 16th-century piece by Cristóbal de Morales. -- BenRG (talk) 00:21, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

It's likely to be conditioned by whether the following word begins with a vowel or not--but I can't imagine sustaining the word in any case. It's not normally phrase-final. μηδείς (talk) 01:29, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

The text is "Juicio fuerte será dado y muy cruel de muerte." I was surprised to see "muy" sustained for so long too, but it is. The tenors have a four-note melisma on it, more than on any other syllable. -- BenRG (talk) 01:46, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

My first impression assuming I have the meter right was to go with muí, but I can see múy as well. Best I can say is I would try to avoid "mwi" as a literal consonant followed by "ee". That sounds totally off. Shame Miss Bono is not posting. I tried, but I can't find the other user she would sometimes communicate with for an opinion. μηδείς (talk) 02:17, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I do wish somebody else had commented on this. From English it's clear someone could sing "high upon the rockies" (same meter as the Spanish verse) as either /haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaɪ/ or /haɪɪɪɪɪɪɪɪɪɪɪɪ/ upon the rockies. μηδείς (talk) 01:38, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

English to Japanese translation help

Hello. Can anyone translate the following into Japanese:

"Please clear the firing range. Weapons demonstration commencing in 3, 2, 1..."

I'm going to be speaking this out loud (this would be for a video, kind of a like a PA message), so please also provide it in roman characters. Tips on pronunciation and where stress should be placed etc. would also be much appreciated. Thank you.-- OBSIDIAN†SOUL 02:14, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Noun-to-Adjective derivations using the '-ed' suffix.

Hello, again!

In the English language—it has long been established—one can readily form adjectives from the past-participles of verbs, even to the point of forming stand-alone words.

e.g.

"He had truly loved her."

"She was a much-loved woman."

Many times, however, people sort-of cut out the verb "middleman," and use the ubiquitous -ed suffix to form adjectives directly from nouns.

e.g.

"Alicia's dark-haired son walks, hand-in-hand, with that red-sweatered girl, over there." —Even though there is no such verb as to hair or to sweater.

I have two quick questions about this usage: One, is it unique to English, or would someone also encounter it in other, Indo-European languages? And two, does it "work" when said nouns are homographs of irregular verbs?

Namely, could somebody call a police officer who walks two different beats, across a city, "a two-beated cop"? Likewise, would anybody ever refer to a mountain with five manicured, ski-runs as "five-runned, winter resort?"

Pine (talk) 11:11, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

For the last bit, your two quoted words (beated and runned) seem cromulent to me. That is, while a bit non standard, they are understandable in context without any explanation. They seem to work within the understood rules of English grammar, even if they are a bit awkward. --Jayron32 12:11, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

They're awkward because they don't work; what works is: a two-beat cop and a five-run resort. Someone else will know the grammatical reasoning here. However, it returns to your original query if it's a four-legged cop (police dog). In English (as other languages no doubt) usage makes the most sense and exceptions are the rule. Manytexts (talk) 12:51, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

But, Manytexts, your versions only work because they are phrases with numbers. A tough-beat cop and a steep-run resort don't work, or at any rate are at least as infelicitous as a tough-beated cop and a steep-runned resort. I think Jayron32's answer is right. --ColinFine (talk) 13:08, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Here are some musings and attempted break-down (by first and second part) of "Double-Barrelled Adjectives", distinguishing "noun-ed" elements from past participles, by Nigel J. Ross, teacher at the City of Milan School for Interpreters and Translators, fwiw. ---Sluzzelin talk 15:51, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

• This question was asked within the last year or so. A search of the archives may help. μηδείς (talk) 16:09, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

I see another hazard where the noun being used as a verb is a homograph of a regular verb with a different meaning. (If I run out of matches, am I poorly matched? If I refuse to have a bow put in my hair, does that mean I remain unbowed? If somebody agrees to give me some refuse, have I been refused?)  Card Zero  (talk) 19:59, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Seems to me, these are all cromulently correct! in that all tangential meanings are true. You would be poorly matched with a smoker, not bloodied, but unbowed for sure, and yes, you have been refused.

At ColinFine, is it then, a five-fingered discount (meaning the lifted object) or a five-finger discount (meaning the act of lifting it)? Manytexts (talk) 22:08, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, neither of those phrases conveys anything to me. I'm not aware of a meaning of "discount" which is an object which can be lifted. --ColinFine (talk) 23:14, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

"Five-finger discount" is a euphemism for shoplifting. It could likewise be called "five-fingered discount", but as far as I know "five-finger" is more commonly used. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:33, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

• As for similar usages in other languages, the formation is not universal. In Zulu, adjectives are a small closed class. Instead of using participles as adjectives, adjectival constructions are made with relative verb phrases, one would have to say, approximately, a beast which has feet which are four. The construction does exist in Latin: e.g., vagina dentata. μηδείς (talk) 17:28, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Exists in French. Le chat botté (Puss in Boots). Itsmejudith (talk) 09:48, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

• I had clean forgotten about the allegorical toothed birth-canal! Unless I err, there never was such a verb as dentare.  :)

At any rate, thanks a lot for all of the responses! I now see that between its classical, Latin usage, and its living, French one, this very much constitutes an established part of Indo-European grammar, and not merely a vulgar anglicism (as I incorrectly assumed). Now, unless someone requests my presence, I shall purchase a refreshment at the cheap-drinked store, across the street. Pine (talk) 13:33, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Resolved