Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 August 31

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August 31

Accused vs Culprit

Moved from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Computing, because now I want to know! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 05:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

What is the difference between accused and culprit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 14.140.235.82 (talk) 14:10, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

See culprit. In the legal setting, both terms are largely identical. Outside, the term "accused" does not suggest that the accusation is true, while "culprit" has a connotation of guilt (at least for me ;-). This should probably go to Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:17, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

The words may refer to the same person, but they differ in context. All real crimes have culprits, and the culprit is the person responsible, whether we learn who he is or not. The accused is the person someone (prosecutor) thinks is the culprit, whether he is or not, because a person may be falsely accused. After an accused is convicted of being the culprit he is called a convict, except, say, by supporters and appeals lawyers. μηδείς (talk) 16:41, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

That's my understanding of the general connotation. But according to our article on culprit, there is no implication of guilt of the culprit in the legal setting. In that formal sense, the culprit is simply someone the crown (or state) has declared it is ready to proceed against. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:53, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I am American, and couldn't comment on the British usage. μηδείς (talk) 17:09, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Why not? I'm German, and I can. It's supposed to be a reference desk, after all. ;-) --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:40, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

In America it makes sense to say the accused turned out not to be the culprit, see definition. From what you are saying British usage is, they would seem to have a different meaning I am not familiar with. μηδείς (talk) 18:04, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

This Q belongs on the Language Ref Desk. StuRat (talk) 19:22, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

You sure? ;-). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:48, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I note that the source for the British legal definition of culprit in said article is over a century old, and that the last line gives the preferred modern term as defendant. I can confirm that in everyday nonlegal British usage today, culprit has exactly the same sense as described above: the culprit is the person who dunnit. If the police are looking for someone thought to have committed a crime, s/he is a "suspect". This becomes "defendant" or "accused" during the trial. However, this, citing American legal dictionaries old and new, does appear to confirm the charged-but-not-yet-convicted legalese meaning, based on historic British court practice. - Karenjc 08:05, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

From my USA public education (ca. 1950s-70s), the fundamental concept of "innocent until proven guilty" underpins the language on this matter. The popularity of police, detective, and legal settings in popular entertainment (both scripted and "reality"), particularly television, has probably done the most to disseminate the nomenclature. Since the culprit (as above) is the "perp[etrator]" and guilt isn't proven without going through due process, the abovementioned British terms "accused/defendant" etc. are common in American English as well. -- Deborahjay (talk) 09:16, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Native Brit here. Every crime has a culprit, i.e. the person who committed it. The Crown Prosecution Service will prosecute someone whom they believe to be the culprit: that person is the accused, also known as the defendant. If they are found not guilty, then the culprit still remains to be found. If they are found guilty, then in the eyes of the law they are no longer the accused, but they are deemed to be the culprit. --TammyMoet (talk) 10:29, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

It seems to me that this is not a BrE vs. AmE issue, but rather an old-fashioned technical use of the term vs. a now much more common popular use, where the latter has become so entrenched that even in technical context the original meaning is compromised and hence the term avoided . --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:44, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

"Culprit" is a contraction of a French legal expression which equates to "the accused in a trial".[1] However, in American English at least, "culprit" equates to the actual (not just "accused") "culpable" ("blameworthy") party, used as a synonym for "perp(etrator)".[2] Also related to the expression mea culpa, "my fault". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:41, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Are there any courts, anywhere in the world, that still use the misunderstanding of Norman French as a synonym for "accused" or "defendant"? The first recorded use was in the Trial of the Earl of Pembroke for murder in 1678, and Macauley was still using the word in this old sense in 1841, but it seems to have faded from use thereafter and the word gradually took on its modern meaning (from 1750 onwards) of one who is guilty of the offence, not just charged. Byron's usage in 1822 is clearly this modern sense. Dbfirs 14:59, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

There is the standard expression "catch/caught the culprit red-handed", that is, in the act of actually stealing, stabbing, setting on fire, whatever. This is way before they're even charged, let alone tried or convicted. But I agree that, in general, the word is applied to people who've been found guilty by a court, not just in the eyes of a witness. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:03, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Notwithstanding the historical origin of "culprit" to mean the accused, in U.S. law "culprit" means the person who actually committed the crime, who may or may not be the accused, and this meaning had already taken hold in the 19th century. I don't know if there are still any jurisdictions in which "culprit" means a criminal defendant, but I suspect not. John M Baker (talk) 16:50, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Sssh/Hush

Primary school teachers say "sssh" or "hush" all the time, and plenty of comic books have characters putting fingers to lips to demand quiet. But all that is in English, so is it the same in other languages? Is it like animal noises where dogs don't go "woof" once you cross into foreign borders, or is "sssh" universal? doktorb _words^deeds 09:01, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

A French equivalent is "chut". Adam Bishop (talk) 11:07, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

wikt:de:pst has good info on the German equivalent and lists equivalents in various languages, wikt:fr:chut has even a picture of the French equivalent. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 11:20, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

In Russian along with шшш/shhh there are щщщ/shhh (softer sound), тсс/tss, тщщ/tshh and цыц/tsyts. The latter has "abruptness" connotations.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 17:34, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

See EUdict | cyt | Polish-English dictionary and Mazowsze - Cyt, cyt - YouTube (3:43).

—Wavelength (talk) 18:11, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

See wikt:st#Latin.—Wavelength (talk) 18:15, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks all doktorb _words^deeds 08:01, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I had an Italian nun who would /ssssss/ us. It sounded like booing, but she did put finger to lips. She was fun, but everything was about pain, Satan, or Jesus being made to weep. μηδείς (talk) 21:06, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

What is the Arabic graffiti?

Would you someone mind typing out the Arabic text that would correspond to the graffiti seen here: File:Down With The Military Rule(Graffiti).jpg?

Thanks WhisperToMe (talk) 20:47, 31 August 2013 (UTC) ar:يسقط حكم العسكر 82.16.227.222 (talk) 02:13, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

The one at the top says "يسقط حكم العسكر" ("down with army rule"). The big one below that in red says "يسقط المجلس العسكرى الحلمى" (although I guess the last word should be "الحكمى"? I don't know, maybe that guy is obscuring something...I would guess it says "down with the ruling military council", i.e. the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces).

The graffiti of the person saying something is "غاز و خرطوش و رصاص.. ﺁحمدك يا رب", "gas and bullets and lead, I will praise thee O Lord". Below that it says "ميدان التحرير" (separated by the drawing of the person), which means Tahrir Square.

Above the quote and under the lamp, I can't read that. Below the drawing of the person, I can't read that either.

Under the window it says "اسقاط المشير", "down with the field marshal" (i.e. Mohamed Hussein Tantawi).

There are some other tiny things I also can't read. Someone who knows Arabic better may wish to correct my readings and translations :) Adam Bishop (talk) 02:53, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, Adam! I'll add what is certain and wait for input on what is uncertain WhisperToMe (talk) 14:55, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

"Autumn" and "Fall"

It struck me as curious that three of the four seasons share a name on both sides of the Atlantic, with Autumn/Fall being the exception. Is there a simple reason for this?

On a related note, I think the usage "Fall" is pretty widely understood over here in Britain, even if almost never used, presumably because of consumption of American TV and film. Does the reverse apply: is the word "Autumn" widely understood in the USA? Is it used much/at all?

Cheers, me dears, --Dweller (talk) 20:53, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

This is my cue to mention listopad, the Czech, Polish and Ukrainian word for November and the Croatian and Macedonian word for October; it relates to the falling of leaves, and is imo the saddest word in any language. Carry on. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:02, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

And hydref which means both "autumn" and "October" in Welsh. ---Ehrenkater (talk) 12:22, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

According to Autumn (given name) it's been in the top 100 North American girls' names for the past decade at least, so it's in use and presumably understood, even if not the preferred option for the season in question. - Karenjc 21:18, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Does anybody name their daughter Fall? HiLo48 (talk) 22:29, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

(ec) Yes, autumn is universally understood and fairly frequently heard in the United States. There's the old standard "Autumn Leaves", for instance (the English lyrics of which are by the American Johnny Mercer). Deor (talk) 21:22, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

EO states flatly that "fall" refers to the falling of the leaves, while "autumn" has ancient and somewhat murky roots. In the US, both are well-known, and I would say the difference in usage is that "autumn" is a little more formal or poetic. "Autumn in New York (song)" is another one. And "It Was a Very Good Year" contains a line about the singer being "in the autumn of my years" or some such. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:38, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

"EO"? --Dweller (talk) 14:25, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

EO = etymonline or Online Etymology Dictionary: "fall" and "autumn". ---Sluzzelin talk 15:01, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

In metaphorical uses like the one Bugs mentions—"the autumn of my years"—autumn is pretty much universal even in the United States. Few, I think, would say "She's in the fall of life". It may be of interest that Tolkien reflected the autumn/fall duality in his names for Elvish seasons; the season called Quellë ("fading") in Quenya is also known as Lasse-lanta ("leaf-fall"). Deor (talk) 12:49, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks all. So, did the Americans adopt a new word at some point, or was it us Brits, and whichever it was, why did they do it and where did it come from? --Dweller (talk) 14:25, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

Autumn#Etymology (unsourced) suggests that "fall" was commonly used in England during the 17th century, the heyday of English emigration to the Americas, "and the new settlers took the English language with them. While the term fall gradually became obsolete in Britain, it became the more common term in North America" ---Sluzzelin talk 14:58, 1 September 2013 (UTC)

"Autumn" and "Fall". "Football" and "Soccer". "Lift" and "Elevator". ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 12:37, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Sidewalk and pavement. Trunk and boot. Hood and bonnet. Glove box and cubbyhole.196.214.78.114 (talk) 13:33, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

It just goes on and on and on and on. ☯ Bonkers The Clown \(^_^)/ Nonsensical Babble ☯ 13:40, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

One occasion when the Americanism seems more sensible to me; "spring" and "fall" are obviously opposites, we really ought to say "vernalis" as opposed to "autumn" and my golden rule is not to use Romance words when a perfectly good English one will do. However, sheer chauvinism is going to prevent me from ever saying "fall" for the back end of the year. Alansplodge (talk) 17:38, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning back end. I was wondering whether to mention that, in my local dialect, the word is neither autumn nor fall, but back end. I wasn't sure how widespread the usage is. Dbfirs 21:36, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

For resetting the clocks twice a year, "spring forward / fall back" probably works better than the Latin equivalents. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:31, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

We have a more verbose but elegant mnemonic over here; "When summer comes, we say très bon / And put the clocks an hour on. / When winter comes we cry "alack!" / And put the clocks an hour back." Alansplodge (talk) 19:57, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Not even when singing of ye olde Camelot? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:32, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Seems to have been written by an American chap. Alansplodge (talk) 22:03, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

The effrontery! -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:49, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

He was a recidivist who had already committed the same effrontery four years earlier in "Don't talk of June, Don't talk of fall! Don't talk at all! Show Me! --- Sluzzelin talk 00:34, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Some things come down to practicality. It's probably easier to find words rhyming with "fall" than with "autumn", which is maybe why "autumn" appears at the start or the middle of lines from those songs. What rhymes with "autumn"? Maybe "caught 'em". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:28, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

• I love Etruscan. See list of Etruscan words in English. μηδείς (talk) 21:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)