Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 May 9
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May 9
editWest African surname
editHi all - I can't help but notice, when listening to world news or sport, just how common the West African surname Cisse seems to be. I see for the dab page here that it's Mandinko in origin, but I was wondering if anyone here had any idea as to its meaning... is it perhaps a "trade surname", similar to Smith, Cooper, or Hunter in English, or perhaps a toponym-related name like the English surname Hill? Thanks in advance, Grutness...wha? 02:34, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Oral tradition describes it as an old royal clan name, dating back to the dawn of the Ghana Empire. I don't think the etymology is clear at all, though there are explanations in oral tradition. One site I found states "that the name “Cisse” is an honorific patronymic name attributed to the founder of the dynasty Wagadou for bringing the horse in West Africa , and indeed, the very name “sy” means in sarakhole tongue (language of the Soninke), “white horse”." [1]. The mentioned founder of the kingdom, "Djabe Makan (Diaba) Cissé", is spelled Majan Dyabe Cisse in en.wikipedia's articles (e.g. the ones on Ghana Empire or History of the Soninke people. Then again, his father's name was already "Cissé" too, in oral tradition, so ...). ---Sluzzelin talk 04:55, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- (update) Similarly, the French Wikipedia article on Soninke people (fr:Soninkés) has: "Cissé (and its variants Cise, Sise or Siise) occupies a special place as it was the patronym of the first six Soninke clans descending from the six sons of Dingka. "Ci" means "horse", "cisé" would mean "rider"/"horseman." ---Sluzzelin talk 09:01, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for that. I suppose if there was an English language equivalent, "Knight" would be about as close as you could get then, both in terms of the horserider connotation and the status. Grutness...wha? 23:57, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- Marshall (name) as well. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:29, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- I'd also mention the names Chevalier and Rider as having 'knightly' connotations, and Stewart/Stuart as a royal clan name with its roots in a position at court. AlexTiefling (talk) 15:49, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Marshall (name) as well. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 15:29, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for that. I suppose if there was an English language equivalent, "Knight" would be about as close as you could get then, both in terms of the horserider connotation and the status. Grutness...wha? 23:57, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
なる (Japanese)
editHi,
a) In a particular context, うれしくてならなかったよ is translated as "That made me so glad".
b) As I understand it, 学校に行かなくてはならない conveys the idea "must go to school".
Both involve the use of the negative form of the verb なる. I realise that both usages may be idiomatic to some extent, but I would like to understand, in each case, the literal meaning of なる, and how the overall meaning derives from that literal meaning. Along the way, I would also like to understand what connection, if any, exists between these two meanings of なる. 86.160.82.205 (talk) 19:45, 9 May 2012 (UTC)
- The meaning ot the first sentence is #3 and #3 at the bottom. Please see the difference between two sentences. The first one uses "(うれしく)て", but the second one uses"(いかなく)ては". Oda Mari (talk) 16:16, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- Mari, those dictionary entries tell me what these patterns mean, but what I don't understand, and what I want to know, is why they mean what they do. I do not understand what the verb なる literally means in these cases, or whether there is any connection between the two meanings. Can you (or anyone) explain that? 81.159.105.59 (talk) 20:01, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think the second one can be related to なる in the sense of becoming—it means "nothing [good] comes of not going to school". I suppose the first one means that you couldn't control your happiness, i.e., that it wouldn't become anything else. That's a bit of a stretch, admittedly. -- BenRG (talk) 07:00, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- As for b, it's a double negative. See the (行か)なくて part. 学校に行かなくて can be translated as "not go to school". 行かなくてもいい is (you) don't have to go to school. You can go is 行ってもいい, you know. 行かない is not to go and 行かなくなった is he /she stopped going. And ならない denies the first part. See #1. It's not a double nebative example, a simple "do not enter" sentence with ならない. As for a, I cannot explain well. This ならない is used to express unrestrained emotion. It's used mostly with a combination of a て/te form adverb like 悲しくて, くやしくて, or 腹が立って and ならない. When it is used with a te form verb, as far as I know, it should be xx(し)たくて/want to xx like 行きたくて. Not with 行かなくて. But I personally use たまらない [2] [3] or しかたがない [4] [5] more often than ならない. I think BenRG is correct. Oda Mari (talk) 10:33, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. "I suppose the first one means that you couldn't control your happiness, i.e., that it wouldn't become anything else." -- the difficulty I have with this explanation is that I see nothing in the Japanese corresponding to "anything else". If anything, going down this route seems to produce the meaning "wouldn't become happiness", which appears to be essentially the opposite of what is really meant. Also, does anyone have any view about who or what -- if anything -- is the actual grammatical subject of ならない in (b)? Is it grammatically possible for it to be 学校に行かなくて, or is it some other unstated thing? 86.181.201.75 (talk) 02:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- 学校に行かなくて is the topic of the second sentence (は is the topic marker). In the first sentence ～くて is being used in the sense of "I am/was so ~ that...", which makes sense in combination with たまらない ("I'm so happy I can't stand it") or しかたがない ("I'm so happy I can't help it"). So both sentences come close to making sense if ならない is a shortened form of 何にもならない. One can be hopelessly happy, and as for not going to school, it won't get you anywhere. -- BenRG (talk) 07:38, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- It might be better to remember なくてはならない as a set phrase because it is also an adjective.[6] I think the usage in (b) is not unlike a "cannot/do not ...without..." sentence in en. This can be also applied to なければならない and なくてはいけない. The subject in (b) would be I. But it could be "you", "they", "he/she", "children", etc and I think the subject is omitted in (b). As for (a), think like this. ならない itself is a negative foam and can be translated not only "must not" and "should not", but also "cannot help (feeling)" or "cannot stop ...ing". Or think it as a modified and shortened form of Xずにはいられない. See also [7]. Ja is different from en. The definition and its usage of a word/phrase cannot be explained or put into one place in en grammar. Oda Mari (talk) 08:01, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for the further suggestions. I think you have identified the crux of the difficulty in reconciling these two uses (at least in English) when you say that ならない "can be translated not only 'must not' and 'should not', but also 'cannot help (feeling)' or 'cannot stop ...ing'". In English, these have virtually opposite senses. In most basic terms, the first two mean that something does not happen, while the second two mean that something does happen. I'm trying to wrap my head around Ben's concept but I'm not quite there yet. Perhaps these uses are so deeply idiomatic that there is no really satisfactory explanation. 86.148.152.229 (talk) 11:34, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- It might be better to remember なくてはならない as a set phrase because it is also an adjective.[6] I think the usage in (b) is not unlike a "cannot/do not ...without..." sentence in en. This can be also applied to なければならない and なくてはいけない. The subject in (b) would be I. But it could be "you", "they", "he/she", "children", etc and I think the subject is omitted in (b). As for (a), think like this. ならない itself is a negative foam and can be translated not only "must not" and "should not", but also "cannot help (feeling)" or "cannot stop ...ing". Or think it as a modified and shortened form of Xずにはいられない. See also [7]. Ja is different from en. The definition and its usage of a word/phrase cannot be explained or put into one place in en grammar. Oda Mari (talk) 08:01, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- 学校に行かなくて is the topic of the second sentence (は is the topic marker). In the first sentence ～くて is being used in the sense of "I am/was so ~ that...", which makes sense in combination with たまらない ("I'm so happy I can't stand it") or しかたがない ("I'm so happy I can't help it"). So both sentences come close to making sense if ならない is a shortened form of 何にもならない. One can be hopelessly happy, and as for not going to school, it won't get you anywhere. -- BenRG (talk) 07:38, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. "I suppose the first one means that you couldn't control your happiness, i.e., that it wouldn't become anything else." -- the difficulty I have with this explanation is that I see nothing in the Japanese corresponding to "anything else". If anything, going down this route seems to produce the meaning "wouldn't become happiness", which appears to be essentially the opposite of what is really meant. Also, does anyone have any view about who or what -- if anything -- is the actual grammatical subject of ならない in (b)? Is it grammatically possible for it to be 学校に行かなくて, or is it some other unstated thing? 86.181.201.75 (talk) 02:39, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
- As for b, it's a double negative. See the (行か)なくて part. 学校に行かなくて can be translated as "not go to school". 行かなくてもいい is (you) don't have to go to school. You can go is 行ってもいい, you know. 行かない is not to go and 行かなくなった is he /she stopped going. And ならない denies the first part. See #1. It's not a double nebative example, a simple "do not enter" sentence with ならない. As for a, I cannot explain well. This ならない is used to express unrestrained emotion. It's used mostly with a combination of a て/te form adverb like 悲しくて, くやしくて, or 腹が立って and ならない. When it is used with a te form verb, as far as I know, it should be xx(し)たくて/want to xx like 行きたくて. Not with 行かなくて. But I personally use たまらない [2] [3] or しかたがない [4] [5] more often than ならない. I think BenRG is correct. Oda Mari (talk) 10:33, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
- I think the second one can be related to なる in the sense of becoming—it means "nothing [good] comes of not going to school". I suppose the first one means that you couldn't control your happiness, i.e., that it wouldn't become anything else. That's a bit of a stretch, admittedly. -- BenRG (talk) 07:00, 11 May 2012 (UTC)