Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 June 21

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June 21

Etymology of the idiom 吹毛求疪

What does the 疪 part stand for? I'm just curious what the literal meaning is Kayau Voting IS evil 04:16, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

A machine translation of the chinese idiom is Gross for the flaws where 疪 means flaws. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:47, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

The idiom originated with Han Feizi (book) and it is found in #29大體. 疵 means fault, flaw, or scar. In this en version, it is translated "never blew off any hair to find small scars". Oda Mari (talk) 16:09, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually that's the translation for "不吹毛而求小疵", which means "not (不) blow on hair (吹毛) to (而) look for (求) small flaws (小疵, the correct character for the idiom)". So the literal meaning of the idiom is actually the opposite of that: to blow off hair and find flaws, which figuratively means nitpicky. There's also a Wiktionary page on this idiom. --antilived^{T | C | G} 02:18, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Side note: 而 does not mean to (in any meaning). It's a conjunction, which in this case means and (but it can mean or when the context demands it). Steewi (talk) 03:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Yea I probably shouldn't have done that per character translation thing, but if you take the phrase as a whole it makes the most sense to translate it to "to" since it is doing something in order for an outcome. --antilived^{T | C | G} 22:41, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I checked my Chinese textbook and I think it's meaning 3 of 而, which is '表示前後事件的轉折關係，可譯作可是、但是、卻. Kayau Voting IS evil 10:47, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

...Wait, did you say Han Feizi? What a coincidence! One of the texts we have to study in the last chapter is 曾子殺豬, and that last unit is also the one where we learnt 而. Intersting! :) Kayau Voting IS evil 10:49, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Don't stress over it. 而、可是、但是、卻 are often confused even for native speakers. It's a common school exercise for elementary school children. Talking about the literal translation of 而 is really "吹毛求疪" in this case. :) --Kvasir (talk) 21:47, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

You're assuming I'm an adult whose second language is Chinese. Well, you got both parts wrong - look at my userpage. :) I just left primary school, in fact. For some reason we're STILL doing these exercises. :P Nice one btw. Kayau Voting IS evil 09:00, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

You're assuming my comment was meant for you, it wasn't. It was more for the whole thread after Steewi's comment. --Kvasir (talk) 15:11, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Whoops, sorry for the misunderstanding. :P That was a run-on btw. Kayau Voting IS evil 14:34, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

How can I get Unicode range of a Language.

Dear All,

I want to know the unicode range of following languages.

For example Japaneese scripts are Hiragana and Katakana starts from 0x400 and ends at 0x4ff. Like Japaneese what are the starting and ending of the below languages.

Russian, German, Italian, French, Spanish, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish.

Thanks in Advance, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Santhosh4g (talk • contribs) 05:33, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Latin script characters for languages cross a number of different code pages...

• Basic Latin,
• Latin 1, starts at 00A0
• Latin Extended-A, starts at 0100
• Latin Extended-B, starts at 018F
• . . .
• Cyrillic, 0401 to 04E9
• . . .

Also, not all past language-specific standards map uniformly into current Unicode. Not as much a concern now but you should be aware if working with older files. Those fonts were generally for non-code page aware applications which mapped in the relevant code page right after Basic Latin. Only languages with their own unique character set, like Russian, have their own dedicated code page. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:29, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Microsoft Word 2007 provides a symbol table that gives the Unicode number for each character. The common language characters for English, Norwegian and Swedish are contained within the ASCII range 32...255 which is the same range in Unicode. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:59, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

The unicode page is the place to look. Zoonoses (talk) 23:03, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

-ian vs. -esque

Why "Beckettian", "Dickensian" and "Swiftian" but "Pinteresque", "Audenesque" and "Hardyesque"? Is there a pattern here? Is it something as simple as the stress in the latter group falling on the first syllable (of two)? --Viennese Waltz ^talk 14:07, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know the former is more adherents/proponents of, the latter is more superficial resemblance. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:31, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I would have thought the meanings were pretty much interchangeable, actually. They both refer to resemblances but I wouldn't say the latter was any more superficial. "Pinteresque" for example very clearly relates to enigmatic pauses and implied threats. Just thought of another one, Kafkaesque. --Viennese Waltz ^talk 14:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I am noticing a pattern here. If appending -ian to a name produces a word that is easy to pronounce, that seems to be the form that is accepted. Otherwise, -esque seems to be preferred. Apart from that though, I agree that there is a subtle difference in meaning. I think -ian means something like "related to, after the manner of, following in the footsteps of", whereas -esque means something like "reminiscent of, having some of the same features as". For example, you could talk about "Shakespearian dialogue", which might well refer to dialogue written by Shakespeare himself. Or, you could refer to a "Shakespearian style", which might imply a style that could be mistaken for Shakespeare's writing. However, you might refer to a modern writer's "Shakespearesque use of word-play", which would not imply a writing style that could actually be mistaken for Shakespeare's. Marco polo (talk) 15:58, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Burchfield's New Fowler's Modern English Usage has a 800-word essay on this subject, and concludes that the choice of suffix (and there are several others) is mostly governed by euphony.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:37, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

There is also the suffix -ic used, as in "Platonic" and "Napoleonic." I suggest looking at the list of eponymous adjectives in English to see even more options. — Michael J 21:52, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Quoting the CALD: -esque is 'like or in the style of someone or their work', while -ian is 'connected with or belonging to the stated place, group or type'. -ic is just 'used to form adjectives'. :D BTW Orwellian too. Kayau Voting IS evil 15:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

more Deutsch help needed

I'm about to get started on tidying a very rough translation from German, and am stuck at the first sentence. Yes, you're right, that doesn't bode well.

The text I'm translating is from a book about Trier, and the section is on Saint Paulin Church. Here is the source text, Trier und seine Alterthümer, which is in a Fraktur typeface.

What I get for the first sentence is: "The church of St. Paulinus, formerly belonged to the wealthy founder of the same name and is only since 1803 parish church.", from "Die kirche zum h. paulinus gehörte ehemals dem reichen Stiste gleichen Namens und ist erst seit 1803 Pfarrkirche." (Stiste may be Stifte, but I helpfully get pencil or pins for that one!)

I'm sure (based on this book and other sources) that the church was built after the death of Paulinus of Trier, and so I'm confused as to how it could formerly belong to him. Is this an idiom or expression or the wrong translated words? Should "formerly belonged to...founder" have something to do with being dedicated to the patron of the same name? I've searched a German dictionary for other meanings and have vague ideas on possible rewordings but nothing firm.

The church was formerly collegiate and became a parish church in 1803 when the associated abbey was dissolved, but the abbey wasn't named after/didn't have anything to do with Paulinus (as far as I know, it was St Maximin's Abbey, after Maximin of Trier, the bishop of Trier before Paulinus, and before it was St Maximin's, it was dedicated to John the Evangelist).

Could someone who actually knows German pull something more understandable out of that sentence or at least point me in the right direction? If you want the following sentences, the rest of the draft translation is here: Talk:Saint Paulin Church. Thanks! Maedin\^talk 16:17, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

The German text actually says "Stifte", which in this context means something like "foundation" (if I have the English terminology correct, the "Stift" is the "college" that runs a collegiate church - see de:Stift (Kirche)). So the church did not belong to the founder but to the foundation of the same name. -- Ferkelparade π 16:25, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Pieces fall into place, thank you! Haven't come across a Paulinus foundation/college in any of my research, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one. Danke! Maedin\^talk 16:48, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

References to "the collegiate church of St. Paulinus" can be found here and here, for instance. It looks as though this book is what you need to get your hands on. Deor (talk) 17:47, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I knew it had been collegiate, just didn't know of which/what! Thanks for finding that reference, GBooks seems to have a lot of it available...goody, :) Maedin\^talk 19:37, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

As a side note on the Fraktur long s and the Fraktur f: Fraktur usually uses ligature in ft combinations, while st does not. I hope this helps in avoiding further confusion of the OPs side. --91.6.11.209 (talk) 20:16, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, that is useful. There were several words that would not translate, for some it may be I mistook an f for an s or the other way around (zooming in interrupted the flow!). I'm sure that's not the fault with all, though, I intend to circle problems on the text later and bug the ref deskers even more! Thanks again, Maedin\^talk 20:38, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

what is the word for the 'negative feeling'

(imaginative, artificial, or real) that typically produces tension or hostility among two groups of people for agreement or harmony that usually arises out of historical or situational agreement in logical coherence among things or thoughts for quality of being inconsistent and lacking harmonious uniformities. Some sorts of such examples:

• Many mainland Chinese do not want that they to be identified as Pilipino.
• Métis do not want that they to be identified as Indians.
• Indians do not want that they to be identified as Inuit.
• Indians (origins of India) do not want that they to be identified as the members of outcasts.

These above examples are more or less out of some sots of cultural and educational attachment or advancement. But some other sorts are just about languages. Examples:

• Ukrainians, Polish, Mennonites, etc., have some sort of … (feeling?) toward Germans.

May be this is high and subtle in North America though not in Germany. There are many other examples. -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

You could say people A feel distinct identity from people B. You could also say people A feel dissimilarity towards people B, but that doesn't carry the special nuance of being sensitive about being confused with them. "Rivalry" does, but unfortunately also implies being in competition with the other people. Would you mind putting some punctuation in your first sentence? It makes my teeth itch. 81.131.16.251 (talk) 22:49, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Indignance might come close to it. That's the feeling expressed when someone strongly denies something that's been said of them and is somewhat resentful that such a claim was ever made in the first place. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 23:28, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

A concept much in currency nowadays is that of the Other. There is said to be a concept of "otherness" that may relate to the notion that you might be suggesting. Bus stop (talk) 23:59, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Ethnic hostility (the closest article I can find is Ethnic hatred). Clarityfiend (talk) 04:48, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The word is "insult" or "insulted" or "insulting." One may be insulted by another's ignorance {as in, You think I'm X because you don't know a damn thing about X or Y, but I'm actually Y, and I find your ignorance insulting) without indicating judgment of the incorrect category; or one could be insulted in an elitist way (You think I'm X, but I'm actually Y, which is much better than X). 63.17.50.124 (talk) 08:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Hatred or insult is too strong. I see what the OP is asking. Like Canadians, for the most part, usually feels offended when mistaken as Americans, or resent being falsely identified. Resentment is more an appropriate level. --Kvasir (talk) 22:41, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say hatred. "Resentment" is a by-product of being insulted. You can't feel resentment without feeling insulted. "I RESENT THAT!" means, among other things, "I interpret that as an insult." 63.17.32.100 (talk) 09:49, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

A similar word came by listing to radio few days ago, but i could not recall it again. The first examples are just the translations of body languages because non-body languages can be inaccurate to translate their state of acuteness. The explanations may be too strong, but the consensus may be the tribalism to which one’s state of accord seeks an unstated consensus in counterpart. It is simply the historical group identity to which one is positively or negatively attached to or resembles from a sense of accord regardless of one’s conformity to his/her counterpart.

If someone could add more to this post, that would be fine. Otherwise, this is good. Mr.Bitpart (talk) 02:05, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Verses in "An Mhaighdean Mhara" (Irish)

I've listened to several versions of An Mhaighdean Mhara on YouTube, and I'm confused by differences in the final verse. Two YouTube clips give these lyrics:

Tá an oíche seo dorcha is tá an ghaoth i ndroch aird

Tá an tseisreach na seasamh is na spéarthaí go hard

Ach ar bharr na dtonnta is fá bhéal na trá

Siúd chugaibh Mary Chinidh is í i ndiaidh an Éirne shnámh

Aoife Ní Fhearraigh's version (starts here at about 2:30) seems close (though what do I know? I don't speak Irish). When Máiréad Ní Domhnaill, Máire Brennan, and Máiréad Ní Mhaonaigh reach the last verse here about 2:40, what they sing seems different from the lyrics given.

I suspect someone pasted the lyrics into each clip from yet another source--so I'm wondering what Mairéad, Mairéad, and Máire are singing.

In a related vein, another source suggested that the refrain Siúd chugaibh Mary Chinidh is í i ndiaidh an Éirne shnámh could refer to the river Erne or to the sea, "eirne" being another word for "sea." Is that the case? --- OtherDave (talk) 22:02, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

They're simply repeating the first verse:

Is cosúil gur mheath tú nó gur thréig tú an greann;

An sneachta go frasach fá bhéal na mbeann;

Do chúl buí daite is do bhéilín sámh.

Siúd chugaibh Mary Chionnaith is í i ndiaidh an Éirne a shnámh.

To your second question, I too have heard that an Éirne can mean the sea rather than just the River Erne, but I can't find anything in the Dictionary of the Irish Language to confirm that. +Angr 06:15, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Re: repetition, there's nothing like overlooking the obvious, is there? My mind will be much more at ease as it floats with the tide. --- OtherDave (talk) 11:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)