Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 September 24

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September 24

Leghorn

What is the origin of the English name Leghorn, applied to the Italian town Livorno? It doesn't seem to follow any of the usual rules whereby Italian names get reworked in ENglish.

Apparently during the early modern era, the port was also known as Legorno. As the town's Occitan (Provençal) name shows, English is not the only language that preserves this older variant form. Marco polo (talk) 00:41, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

need a word

Do we have a word in English for something left over after chewing, that we spit out? Say, the woody fiber from chewing sugarcane, or the wax from honeycomb, or the gristle from tough meat. kwami (talk) 00:54, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Residue works, although it certainly isn't strictly for food byproducts. DOR (HK) (talk) 03:41, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

"Remnants" ? 218.25.32.210 (talk) 08:17, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Neither captures the idea that it's something you'd spit out of your mouth. Maybe we don't have a word. kwami (talk) 10:53, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Detritus comes to mind as a possibility, though again, it's not strictly for chewed and discarded materials. A neologism based on "masticate" (masticant?) could possibly be coined and understood. "Cud" or "wad" would probably get the point across, if you were speaking informally.Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 12:57, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I was thinking "wad" would be the most natural word in informal English. 192.251.134.5 (talk) 17:44, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

There's "quid", but that's not usually used for anything other than tobacco. Tevildo (talk) 18:35, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

The OED defines quid as "A small lump of something (esp. tobacco) for chewing." and "Eng. regional in later use. A cast or pellet (PELLET n.1 2b) regurgitated by a bird of prey. Now rare." For the first definition, they use as examples only things that would be chewed, but not swallowed (tobacco, betel nut, gum, coca leaves). I think we have a winner.Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 19:01, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

"Some jerk on the internet" is correct, the best word is probably cud. Apparently nobody here keeps Kosher. In addition to meaning the contents of the first stomach chewed and moved to the second stomach, it also means the same thing as quid. In both cases, it refers to the leftovers of the initial process of mastication (much like Wiki discussions). Msheflin (talk) 01:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

It may be that different words denote different food products. Cellulosic leftovers might serve in one instance, inedible gristle might serve in another instance, and buttery but impossible to digest waxy matter may serve in yet another instance. Should it be one word? Mine all fail that requirement. Bus stop (talk) 01:26, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

lol. chew your cud. shell and pit would also work for some legumes and fruits respectively. Michael Sheflin 01:28, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah but if it's "woody", then it'd have to be lignic and not cellulosic. :) --Pykk (talk) 17:45, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I'm looking for a word or phrase that would work for the remnants of anything you chew and spit out. The 2nd def of 'quid' would be perfect, except the OED only attests to it from the 19th c, and a reader would normally understand it to mean the thing put in your mouth to chew, not what's left over after you chew. But maybe it's close enough. Thanks! kwami (talk) 23:18, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Contract law terminology

what do we call the periodical sheet that states the achieved parts of a contract and the incurred payments for each part? Thank in advance

Not sure that that's a matter of contract law, but it's a schedule of milestones: see Milestone (project management) --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 20:10, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you PalaceGuard008, I managed to get the word that i was looking for.. it is "Progress Bill". Thanks again

Simplified Chinese phrase translation help

From a company policy document: 医疗保险 & 大额医疗保险.
The former is obviously medical insurance, but I really haven't any idea how to translate the latter. Thank you! 218.25.32.210 (talk) 08:08, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

额 é is a financial or numbers term, it has something do with "limit" or "quota" or "rate", yada yada. So I would assume 大额医疗保险 means something like "high-limit medical insurance" (medical insurance with higher coverage) or something like that. A native speaker can probably give a better translation. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 15:43, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Could it mean "high-deductible medical insurance"? 192.251.134.5 (talk) 17:42, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Maybe; it could also be "high-rate" or "high-premium". Not sure. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:57, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Agree - 额 means "amount", "sum", "total". It could refer to any of the sums involved in medical insurance. In the insurance context, it most likely refers to the total insured sum (i.e. the payout limit etc) - i.e. "large sum medical insurance" --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 20:01, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I would say that 大额 refers to the cost of the medical treatment, and therefore it would be something like '[medical] insurance for high cost treatment'. This online dictionary (recommended to me by a fellow translator) only translates the phrase as 'Large Health Insurance', which does not sound like an 'official' translation to me. --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 21:56, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

218.25.32.210, if you could provide the rest of the context in which this phrase appeared it would be helpful... rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 22:17, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

OP here posting from home. I was able to find some context - the company has 2 health insurance plans - regular, and if you have some sort of serious problem and exhaust the regular health insurance allotment, it kicks over to this 大额医疗保险, which provides additional coverage. The 大额 refers to the much higher maximum cost ceiling (ex: 100,000RMB for regular, 400k for 大额), but I'm still having trouble thinking of a way to gracefully say that in English. Thanks to everyone so far! Any ideas? 61.189.63.208 (talk) 22:48, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Expensive premium? Oda Mari (talk) 02:48, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Supplemental coverage? DOR (HK) (talk) 03:56, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I doubt that, that would be something like 补充... rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 04:24, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't speak or read Chinese, but as a professional in the area of employee health benefits, I can tell you that "supplemental" is the best word in English to define what you are describing. Mike R (talk) 21:32, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

OP again. I ended up going with "Extended Medical Insurance" as it seemed truest to the practical usage of 大额医疗保险 (insurance coverage past normal plan limits), if not a particularly literal translation. Thank you to everyone who helped out!218.25.32.210 (talk) 05:07, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Going for accuracy over literal translation was the right choice. However as I state above, "supplemental" is the more standard term, rather than "extended." So rarely do I get to answer a question in my professional field! Mike R (talk) 21:34, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

'High-Risk Medical Insurance' was mentioned to me yesterday. --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 08:41, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Florentia→Fiorenza→Firenze

I've always been curious as to why many italian words that contained the letter 'l' in the latin original have changed to an 'i' in the italian, often words that english has with close to the original latin spelling e.g. flora→fiore, platea→piazza, flumen→fiume, clausus→chiuso. When did the change happen? Mikenorton (talk) 09:42, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

You could also ask a parallel question: why many french words that contained the letter "l" in the latin original version have changed to an /u/ in the french version. The answer can be found in the English language: the english speakers tend to pronounce the "l" (e.g. in "elk") as if it were /w/ - but with an open mouth, i.e. like an unrounded w. Why? because the "l" has (at least) three accents: "regular", "dark" and "soft". The dark "l" - as was pronounced by the ancient french people - tended towards the /w/, whereas the soft "l" - as was pronounced by ancient italian people - tended towards the /y/. If you can understand how the (dark) "l" can sound similar to /w/, then you can also understand how the (soft) "l" can sound similar to /y/. HOOTmag (talk) 11:06, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Not in my (American) English, I don't. The article on L-vocalization has it as a dialectal thing. My 'elk' has an /l/ not an /ɫ/ or /w/. --Pykk (talk) 15:35, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

In American English, converting an L into a W that way is considered a speech impediment in most areas, and could be called an "Elmer Fudd" pronunciation. It seems to be pretty common in certain British dialects and also in parts of the American east coast with a strong British ancestry, such as in parts of North Carolina and New England where it seems relatively common. →Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots 08:04, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks both, the L-vocalization article also explains the Italian change I was asking about. I also use an /l/ when I say 'elk', although living in London, I hear the /w/ version all the time. Mikenorton (talk) 16:04, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually I'm not sure that the L-vocalization article really explains this very much. Apart from Italian, all the examples quoted (and the general description) seem to relate to velarized /ɫ/ after a vowel, rather than to /l/ after a consonant. We don't seem to have an article explaining the various sound changes between vulgar Latin and Italian. --rossb (talk) 05:14, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

see Vulgar_Latin#Phonology

That article doesn't give detailed changes for Italian, specifically not the one in question. A section at the end of the article (Vulgar_Latin#History_of_specific_Romance_languages) gives links to

• Catalan phonology and orthography
• History of French
• History of Portuguese
• History of the Spanish language
• Latin to Romanian sound changes
• Old French

But nothing for Italian. Perhaps we need an article for Italian? --rossb (talk)

British biscuits

How do you call these biscuits? See: http:// fr.fotolia.com/id/4580406 --Quest09 (talk) 16:08, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Shortbread. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks!--Quest09 (talk) 17:34, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Yet another German question

German-language Donald Duck pocket books from the 1980s generally include some weird phrases. They generally say alle ("all") meaning "over, finished". For example Der Kaviar ist alle, Gittalein. Sollten wir mit den Lachs beginnen? ("There's no caviar left, my dear Brigitta. Are we to begin with the salmon?") And then there's the utterly weird expression of alarm, Ach du grüne Neune! Höchste Eisenbahn! ("Oh, you green number nine! The highest railroad!") My sister, who lived in Germany for over a year, said she did not encounter these phrases in actual usage and had not even heard them before. Do Germans actually use these, or are they simply from the imagination of the comic book writer? JIP | Talk 18:33, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

They're used, although I haven't heard someone use the latter two. Wiktionary has an article on 'höchste Eisenbahn', I don't know about 'grüne Neune', but if I had to guess I'd say it's one of those many far-fetched euphemisms for 'devil'. The expression "ist alle" for "all gone" isn't terribly uncommon though. It's even one of the many German idioms borrowed into Swedish, in the form of "sagan är all" ('the story's over'). --Pykk (talk) 18:46, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. I read the German Wiktionary entry for höchste Eisenbahn and understood everything of it. I take it anjekommen is a dialectal word (albeit a dialect I've never heard of) and not a typo of angekommen? Another weird phrase that comes to mind is ich verstehe nur Bahnhof ("I understand only the railway station") for "I don't understand anything about it". Is it actually used? JIP | Talk 19:20, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

You are correct. "Ich verstehe nur Bahnhof" is an idiom meaning something like "It's all Greek to me." I guess it comes from the fact that most people, when learning a new language, learn vocabulary like "car", "bus", and "train" first. I assume it gets at least some use because it shows up in my dictionary and returns a lot of Google hits. Unfortunately, I can't help you much on "anjekommen" except that it might be dialectal - it returns far too many Google hits to be a typo. Xenon54 / talk / 19:30, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

Forms like anjekommen are typical of the dialect of Berlin and the surrounding Brandenburg region, where syllable-initial <g> becomes <j>. Marco polo (talk) 19:40, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

We have an article on Erika Fuchs, the brilliant translator of Donald Duck and company. Some of the phrases you mention may have been created by her and filtered into colloquial German. What pity the lady is not around any more to improve the abysmal synchronising of the Simpsons. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:44, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I've definitely heard "du grüne Neune", though perhaps only on TV; I'm not sure I've ever encountered it in spontaneous speech. I've never heard "höchste Eisenbahn", though. Marco Polo is right about [g] becoming [j] in Berlin. Since I'm a foreigner, my German friends find it particularly amusing when I (attempt to) speak Berlin dialect instead of standard German; if I haven't understood someone and ask "Wat haste jesacht?" (standard: "Was hast du gesagt?") it's sure to get a smile. +Angr 10:34, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

So, I'm a native German speaker and I would use all of these idioms in normal speech. There may be regional differences, all of them sound slightly northern to me so may well not be heard in the south. I doubt very much that any of the idioms have been invented by Erika Fuchs.195.128.251.111 (talk) 22:48, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

In the news

An item reads "Irina Bokova of Bulgaria is elected Director-General of UNESCO, the first woman and first Eastern European to fill the role"; is not the appositive misused? The phrasing seems wrong to my ear, and I would write "...UNESCO, becoming the first...", but the usage at issue here appears not infrequently on the main page (in ITN and DYK), and so I suspect that I'm wrong; I'd appreciate a clarification. Thanks in advance, 76.230.145.144 (talk) 22:19, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I've fixed the wording anyway. --BorgQueen (talk) 22:33, 24 September 2009 (UTC)