Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 May 16

Language desk
< May 15	<< Apr | May | Jun >>	May 17 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

May 16

A job catching moles

What do you call someone whose line of work is to screen for and uncover moles and other hostile agents or informants within an organization, agency, company, etc? "Counterspy" is one term I dug up, but I am looking for an informal or slang term if one exists. Thanks in advance. 65.190.207.110 (talk) 05:20, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Well I notice that the intro of that article mentions the Mafia term "rat", so perhaps a "ratcatcher"? Nanonic (talk) 05:39, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

If you want to invent one, "moleskinner" works well. The Jade Knight (talk) 07:35, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

James Jesus Angleton and Spy vs. Spy.--Goodmorningworld (talk) 11:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

SMERSH? AnonMoos (talk) 15:46, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

We have an article on counter-intelligence, although it does not appear to list any slang terms for the operatives. -- 76.201.155.7 (talk) 12:23, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Spycatcher is what first sprung to mind, but I'm not sure how far this applies in the wider world. There are a number of specific roles listed in counter-espionage. --Kateshortforbob 19:26, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Why not just a plain old molecatcher? BrainyBabe (talk) 20:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Kanji

How would you write the name Keishiro Matsui (Japanese Minister of Foreign Affairs, 1868-1946) in kanji? Many thanks. - Mu (talk) 11:19, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

See jp:松井慶四郎--K.C. Tang (talk) 12:33, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for both the tr. and the link. - Mu (talk) 12:51, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Except that 松井慶四郎 (Japanese Minister of Foreign Affairs, 1868-1946) is Keishirō, not the asked for Keishiro, who never existed. 124.214.131.55 (talk) 12:59, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Yup, just like Tokyo doesn't exist, right? Not a typo, it's just that in English we never use the bar over vowels. No need to correct the OP.--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 13:56, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Unlike Tokyo, you will not find Keishiro in an English dictionary. 124.214.131.55 (talk) 14:23, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

So? The convention in English is not to add the bar over the 'o', as in Natsume Soseki. Since when did he appear in a dictionary?--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 20:21, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

You must be trolling or significantly uninformed because that is not the English convention. The article that you linked to rightly redirects to Natsume Sōseki, just like the the Britannica article on the same subject. Have you actually read his books in English? I suggest that you go to a library because they are spelled as Sōseki (or Sôseki in older texts). You may verify a few covers: Botchan, Inside my glass doors, Kusamakura, Ten nights of dream, Two Japanese novelists: Sōseki and Tōson. 124.214.131.55 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 00:39, 17 May 2009 (UTC).

That was an unnecessary insult to someone who is trying to help in the answer to the question. I am not trolling and I have read his books. I am not prepared to get into a pointless argument with you, suffice to say that I am a professional translator, and I have been specifically instructed not to put the bar in, as it confuses clients who don't know what it means. Anyway, thank you for demonstrating your undoubtedly superior knowledge. We shall be forever in your debt.--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 01:21, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

In English we don't write with such marks. It's a question of whether you are writing in Japanese Romaji or in English. The former, bar as much as you want; the latter, no. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 04:36, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we can take the case of Ichiro Suzuki in fact, or countless other Japanese people in the USA who never put a bar above the vowels in their names.--KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 05:03, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Names are perhaps not that problematic, more pedantic, Tokyo or Toukyou (ugly, that?)all the same, but are there not very? many words only different in 1 large/short vowel?--Radh (talk) 11:45, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

German help

I started a stub at Allgemeiner Arbeiterverband der Freien Stadt Danzig. I reckon that http://www.ifz-muenchen.de/heftarchiv/1966_2.pdf contains some material that could be used to expand the article (starting at p 151), but I can't read German well. Any help would be appreciated. --Soman (talk) 11:25, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

It is rather curious that the document you linked is the only evidence on the web of this organization. There is only a mention on page 151 et. seq. that is was dissolved by the chief of the police on December 7, 1935 because their goals were in opposition to the government and the reason for its existence taken from their pamphlets was contrary to the penal code. The German Wikipedia doesn't have a page on this organization. Maybe you would be better off if you started a page on the opposition in Danzig at the time and included them as one item. 71.236.24.129 (talk) 09:05, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

As nr. 71.... points out. it basically just says this union you are interested in was quiet militant and the Nazis shut it down, in part because the number of members of their own Arbeitsfront was shrinking.--Radh (talk) 11:54, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. I've expanded a bit, based on your comments. --Soman (talk) 19:45, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

A job catching moles (animals)

Inspired by the question somewhere above, I'd like to know if is any special name for someone who hunts or catches moles. Pest controller or exterminator I don;t want, is there a specialized term used just of moles? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.54.169 (talk) 16:30, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Molecatcher. See that box on the left? Just below "search"?... Aaadddaaammm (talk) 16:48, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

What "Interaction"? What does that have to do with moles? Anyway, thank you for the quick answer :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.44.54.169 (talk) 16:50, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Evolution of German?

I am an English speaking molecular biologist learning German. I see language development as a kind of evolution, with selective pressure required for an aspect of the language to appear, and to persist. So the question is: what's the "selective pressure" on having different genders for inanimate objects? Thanks! Aaadddaaammm (talk) 16:46, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Well, German simply inherited its three-gender system from Proto-Germanic, which in turn inherited it from Proto-Indo-European. We recently had a discussion archived here about why languages have grammatical gender. An older discussion is archived here. +Angr 17:23, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

You're welcome to "see language development as a kind of evolution", and many others have so seen it. But the attractiveness of this metaphor does not guarantee that any particular concept of evolution (such as 'selection pressure' has any bearing on language development. --ColinFine (talk) 23:17, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

Evolutionary language development has a number of followers. If you're looking at gender systems from that perspective, the selective pressure is simple maintenance of an existing feature. Many of the cases of the development of a gender system is through language contact, the linguistic equivalent of interbreeding. Steewi (talk) 01:14, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The only "evolution" of German with respect to grammatical gender that I've heard of is that if there's a noun referring to a human which has "unnatural" gender assignment (such as das Mãdchen meaning "the girl", but with neuter grammatical gender), then authors in previous centuries were sometimes perfectly happy to continue to refer back to this noun with pronouns of the "unnatural" gender (such as neuter es in this case) for several subsequent sentences, while the tendency since the 20th century is to start using pronouns of "natural gender" (such as feminine sie in this case) fairly quickly. AnonMoos (talk) 12:15, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

In speech, yes, but I think there's more reluctance to do that in writing. What I notice in newspapers is that they'll keep neuter agreement with Mädchen in the same sentence ("ein Mädchen, das von seinem Stiefvater missbraucht wurde, bevor es zur Schule ging"), but then they will quickly find a feminine noun or substantivized adjective they can use as a synonym so that they can switch over to feminine pronouns ("die Sechsjährige sagte, sie hätte ihrer Mutter von nichts erzählt, weil sie Angst hätte"). +Angr 05:14, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely correct, but in general beware of the use of grammar in german journalism, esp. on the radio (written journalism is better, I guess). It is atrocious.--Radh (talk) 17:49, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Billiars

Is there an English noun "billiar" (perhaps in the context of mathematical physics)? At least on the Wikipedia page billiard, there are a lot of examples of this word. Is "billiar" an English word or merely a spelling error of "billiard"? --Andreas Rejbrand (talk) 18:31, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

Seems to be a spelling error. I've never heard "billiar" and can't find it in any dictionary or Google search (aside from surnames). Interestingly, "billar" (notice only one i) is the Spanish equivalent of the term "billiards" - perhaps we have a user who's trying to invent a new word? Xenon54 (talk) 18:48, 16 May 2009 (UTC)