Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 April 20

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April 20

Plural of French Nouns

I am given the following rules for forming plurals of French nouns:

• In general, the plural of a noun or an adjective is formed by adding s - example: crayon - crayons.

• If the noun ends in s, z or x or if an adjective ends in s or x, the plural of a noun has the same transcription as the noun itself - examples: bras - bras, voix - voix, nez - nez, bas - bas, and vieux - vieux. My question is if adjectives ending in z remain the same in the plural form or not, because the text specifically does not mention such adjectives (as above).

• Nouns and adjectives ending in au, nouns ending in eu, and a few nouns ending in ou, add x instead of s to form the plual - examples: couteau - couteaux, beau - beaux, jeu - jeux, bijou - bijoux, caillou - cailloux, and a few rarer nouns ending in ou. My question is how do you know which nouns ending in ou, add x rather than s? The other noun I know is genou - genoux. My other question is how is the plural formed for adjectives ending in eu? The text specifically excludes mention of such adjectives but what is the plural form of blue - bleu? Is it bleux or bleus?

• Nouns and the commoner adjectives ending in al change al to au and add x - examples: général - généraux, rival - rivaux, exceptions: bal - bals and a few rarer nouns (wavelength - I took your advice on the accents). My question is which are the rarer nouns? My other question is which are the commoner adjectives and which adjectives don't follow this rule?

• Lastly, are these all the rules I need to know?

Wikipedia has been a great help to me so far and I am very grateful for the help I have recieved. I am more than happy if I get any help, however minor. Thankyou. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 03:58, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I have just visited the top ten web pages in a Google SERP for "plural french nouns" and I suggest that you visit them also. At least one of them lists the only seven French nouns ending in ou which form their plurals by adding x: bijou, caillou, chou, genou, hibou, joujou, and pou. Much of the information is the same on those pages, but, by visiting them all, you can benefit by: (1) reinforcing learning by repetition, (2) learning from some pages what other pages omitted, and (3) learning, from preferably more pages, correct information that contradicts incorrect information (if there is any) on preferably fewer pages. You can research beyond the first ten search engine results. I very much doubt the existence of any French adjective ending in z.

-- Wavelength (talk) 05:10, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I have corrected my comment by inserting the underlined text. Away from the computer, I was having doubts about whether I had remembered to include that detail as I had intended to do, and was hoping to correct it (if necessary) before anyone else mentioned it. -- Wavelength (talk) 05:46, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

[1] was helpful to me where all the exceptions were given. Thanks for that! I am still unsure of the plural of bleu - is it bleus or bleux? I am also unsure about how the plural is formed for adjectives ending in eu? Apart from that you have answered all of my questions - thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 05:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I suggest those 7 nouns are restricted to nouns that end in -ou. The words eau, gâteau and bureau, and some others ending in -eau, are pluralised by adding "x" too. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:34, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I did a google search for "yeux bleus" and "yeux bleux". "Yeux bleus" is over 13 times more common than "yeux bleux", but "yeux bleux" itself gets 61,500 hits, so my guess is that "bleus" is the correct spelling and "bleux" is a very common misspelling. —Angr 05:38, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Thankyou! I did some searching and it seems that the correct plural of bleu is bleus so thanks for confirming that. Thankyou very much JackofOz for your comment but I am still a bit unsure what would be the plural form of adjectives ending in eu.

Would, "I am listening to the teacher." be translated as "J'écoute le maître." or "J'écoute à le maître."? Basically I am unsure whether the verb "écouter" has to be followed by "à". I know I'm asking questions as they come (!) and thankyou very much for your answers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 06:14, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

You don't need "à" with "écouter," so your first option, "J'écoute le maître," is correct. -Elmer Clark (talk) 06:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

And it would have been "au maître" any way, as it is masculin. Lectonar (talk) 08:36, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

French adjectives ending in eu are extremely rare. The plural of bleu ("blue") is bleus. The plural of hébreu ("Hebrew") is hébreux. At least one web page gives the plural of peureu ("fearful") as peureux, but the singular seems to be incorrect because other sources give peureux for both singular and plural (masculine, of course). Incidentally, as a noun, bleu means "bruise", and its plural is formed in the same way that the plural of the adjective bleu is formed.

Some color adjectives have forms identical to those of nouns and are invariable for both gender and grammatical number: cerise ("cherry-colored"), orange ("orange"), olive ("olive[-green]"), marron ("brown"), crème
("cream[-colored]"), paille ("straw-colored"). Other color adjectives have forms identical to those of nouns but follow the usual rules regarding inflection for gender and grammatical number: écarlate ("scarlet"), mauve ("mauve"), pourpre ("crimson"), rose ("pink"). -- Wavelength (talk) 16:34, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, there are adjectives that do not change whether they are masculine, feminine, singular or plural, for example: chic, super, and sensass. ~AH1^(TCU) 01:19, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Are there any adjectives in –z? If so, never mind the masculine plural (which I'd bet is the same), what's the feminine singular? —Tamfang (talk)

A Good Pun?

Can anyone figure out a good pun for an advertisement poster on a new soccer boot? Maybe you could play around with the word "boot"?--220.233.83.26 (talk) 11:05, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Could be risky. I don't know how widespread it is, but "to boot" something can mean to make an error or misplay, which probably isn't the image you want. How about "The Pro Shoes the Pros Shoose"? Mmm. Maybe not. Matt Deres (talk) 13:52, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

This sounds suspiciously like homework. Or if you are in advertising, workwork. What do you need this for? Livewireo (talk) 18:27, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, I've always interperated "to boot" as being synonymous with "in addition". ~AH1^(TCU) 01:04, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

An empty soccer field appears with a player wearing your boots and running. The narrator says "With gear like ours, you can give your old equipment the boot", then he kicks a competitor's boot (instead of the ball) for a penalty shot into the goal. The goal-tender just misses it. (Don't forget to send me my royalties.) :-) StuRat (talk) 02:22, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

The name Jiverly

Where does the name "Jiverly" come from? Is it Vietnamese? Apparently Jiverly Wong was born "Linh Phat Voong" and changed his name to "Jiverly Wong" upon his naturalization as a U.S. citizen (source: [2]). Where did he get the name "Jiverly" from? Mike R (talk) 14:55, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

It looks like a misspelled form of "jewellery", doesn't it? pma (talk) 17:30, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Whatever it is, he used the middle name "Antares", which is also kinda weird. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 19:57, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

I know no Vietnamese, but I can tell you without fear of contradiction that it is not a Vietnamese word. They are all one syllable, and their alphabet does not contain J. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:46, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

It's common for people from East Asia with names that are difficult to pronounce by Western speakers (particularly English-speaking) to choose a more pronounceable name to go by. The selection of these names isn't always in harmony with English speakers' concept of an appropriate name. It's not uncommon recently for people to choose their 'English' names from World of Warcraft or other fantasy stylings (Dragonforce, Hania, etc.), combinations of names (I know someone who goes by Shukham, as he is a fan of Beckham), objects (Snow, Orange, Apple, etc.), and aesthetically pleasing combinations of sounds. Steewi (talk) 05:04, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

When I was in school I knew two brothers whose parents had immigrated from East Asia (can't remember where exactly now) and they had taken English names from the Old Testament. Now some OT names are unremarkable, like Adam, Seth, David, and Jonathan; but one of these boys was named Enoch and I can't remember his brother's name, but it was also a very unusual OT name that, like "Enoch", was likely to get him beaten up on the playground. But for people who didn't grow up in an English-speaking environment, of course it's almost impossible to get a feel for which Biblical names are customary and which are just downright weird. —Angr 05:30, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

A lot of my HK friends in Toronto had very old-sounding English names, most commonly recent royalty: Andrew, Harry, William and also a generous spattering of rarer sounding names like Rudolph, Constantine, Clement, Roderick, Frederick, Sherlock, Leslie (a guy), etc. All of them came to Toronto after they were born, or were born in Canada (on *holiday*) and then lived until high school in HK. We always assumed that when they arrived in Canada the customs officer gave them a chance to choose an English name to put on their passport, and handed them a really old name dictionary, which they opened up randomly to select a (usually archaic sounding) name. I know now that's not exactly what happens but I would be suprised if name dictionaries weren't to blame here. There were also girls "fresh" from HK in my school named Snoopy, Happy, Winnie (2 of them, actually), and Rainbow. No idea where Jiverly comes from though, hah. 124.154.253.25 (talk) 07:58, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

If I didn't know the person's surname was Wong, I've have said Jiverly sounds like a name an Indian might use. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:50, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

If I saw the name out of context I'd guess it's a French place-name. —Tamfang (talk) 22:03, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Oh you

Another editor has claimed that "humourous" is incorrect for British English. Is this right? Clarityfiend (talk) 15:35, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes. It is spelled humorous. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:39, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Usually. Nevertheless, various dictionaries list humourous as a possible (though rare) alternative: [3][4][5]. — Emil J. 15:45, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

That's what threw me. The dictionaries I consulted defined it, but didn't mention its rarity. Clarityfiend (talk) 07:53, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

That's a common flaw in dictionaries: they don't always tell you "but careful writers avoid this". —Tamfang (talk) 22:09, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

What is the word for that feeling in teeth..

Sometimes when we eat lemon, or probably any citric fruit, our teeth become "rough". This happens when drinking concentrated lemonade, or even raw mango juice. There is a strange feeling developed in the teeth, as if the friction between them increased a lot.. The feeling goes away on drinking water or after some time. Is there any word in english for that feeling in teeth? Thanks. --RohanDhruva (talk) 17:03, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Tea and red wine are well-known for containing tannins, which react with proteins in the mouth to produce a rough-feeling texture. The article suggests that tannins are also present in some other fruit juices, so that may be what you're experiencing. (I don't know of an English word for the feeling, specifically, but wines with lots of tannins are said to be "tannic".) -- Coneslayer (talk) 17:12, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

astringent mouthfeel? --Digrpat (talk) 18:25, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

(ec) astringent... Oh... you beat me, Digrpat.... Now I have a bad taste in my mouth... Pallida  Mors 18:28, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Otherwise known as "having clean teeth" :-) Matt Deres (talk) 20:16, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

They might be "clean" in a technical sense, but one of the best ways to remove the feeling is to clean your teeth with toothpaste. In other words, cleaning removes the "clean". Odd. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:44, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Don't know about English, but in my native Slovene, that morning-after-drinking-binge feeling is usually described as 'having hairy teeth'. Describes the feeling fairly accurately, don't you think? No? You freaking weirdos. TomorrowTime (talk) 22:48, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

We talk about having a mouth that feels like the bottom of a budgerigar/parrot's cage. Not sure how anyone knows what that feels like, but it seems apt. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:47, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

You've never had anything crawl in your mouth and die? 124.154.253.25 (talk) 07:37, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I could write a book about "The Things I've Had in My Mouth", but they don't include the crap-infested bottoms of bird cages. -- JackofOz (talk) 08:47, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot for all the replies! Hairy teeth is quite imaginative I must say ;) --RohanDhruva (talk) 19:28, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

As an American who lives in California, I would say "fuzzy teeth", a term that gets almost 1 million google hits.--Eriastrum (talk) 20:05, 23 April 2009 (UTC)