Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2008 May 3

Language desk
< May 2	<< Apr | May | Jun >>	May 4 >

Welcome to the Wikipedia Language Reference Desk Archives
The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions on one of the current reference desk pages.

May 3

Wood

So, I have a hyphenated last name. The first half is Swedish. The second half is English.

I would like to translate the English half, Wood, into Swedish, so that I can jam that on to the original spelling of the Swedish half of my last name to create a scary compound name.

So how would you translate the last name "Wood" into Swedish? 138.192.86.254 (talk) 04:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

You could use "qvist", which means twig, and is a common suffix in Swedish last names. (Although "wood" itself has the cognate "ved".) Adam Bishop (talk) 08:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

There's also "skog" which means forrest, which is also a Swedish surname. --Kjoonlee 08:03, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Twice

In the UK what has happened to the word 'twice'. The young never use it preferring to say 'two times', why is this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Artjo (talk • contribs) 07:00, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

My guess would be it's going the same way as "thrice". It will become obsolete some when in the future. --Lisa4edit (talk) 07:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I guess this means I'm no longer young. But then I use 'thrice' regularly, so maybe I'm just odd. Algebraist 11:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

The synonym for "no longer young" is not "odd", unless this is a Freudian typo. Having attained certain statistical improbabilities myself, I have concluded that "once " is a useful term, "twice" is once to often and "thrice" is a proof of senile compulsive behaviour. There are very few things which bear repeating. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Except another bear perhaps?--Artjo (talk) 06:41, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

And the "o" in "too often"? *ducks and runs* SaundersW (talk) 09:22, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

If medical advice was permitted, you should have suggested orthographic totelage tootelage twotelage tutelage twice or even thrice a week. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 10:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Orthographics? Heaven forfend! That spells discomfort and woe! SaundersW (talk) 16:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd enjoy another beer thrice doktorb _words^deeds 09:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm having trouble imagining how one would drink the same beer thrice. 206.252.74.48 (talk) 13:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I read somewhere that the word thrice is still commonly used by speakers of Pakistani English. Jack^(Lumber) 15:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

As a non-native speaker: I had thought that the phrase "in a thrice", as in ASAP / fairly quickly (or that is how I understand it) was still rather common, at least in UK English? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:49, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

That's 'trice'. Algebraist 22:16, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Oops. Thank you, Algebraist! --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 23:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I should say reports of the death of 'twice' are a bit of an exaggeration. Where I am, people of all ages still seem to use it in expressions like 'twice as far'. To say "on two occasions", I agree the word's heard less than it used to be. I see Lisa writes "some when in the future". That's a lovely old-fashioned use of "some when", which I used to hear a lot as a child in my part of England. Xn4 00:35, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

"Alter Strom" or "Alte Strom" ("Old River") or both in the English Wikipedia?

The discussion is at WT:MoS#Terms from foreign languages. This is a river that runs through the Baltic sea resort of Warnemünde. Germans say "Alter Strom" in the title of their Wikipedia entry, but would almost never use it without the definite article in a sentence, and then it inflects (in the nominative) to "Der Alte Strom". The editor is asking: do we always use "Alte", always use "Alter", or switch back and forth like the Germans do, when writing in the English Wikipedia? - Dan Dank55 (talk)(mistakes) 13:31, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

This is precisely what I was looking for when I asked a question last February, and I eagerly await answers! ---Sluzzelin talk 13:51, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I looked in The Chicago Manual of Style, fifteenth edition, and no help. We hardly ever inflect stuff, and we don't even know that's what we did when we do. You can't flip-flop between "Alte" and "Alter". That's not English, and nobody would know what the heck was going on. I think you should stick with "Alte Strom", because English speakers don't care about our problem here, it's one letter shorter, and German speakers will feel better reading the English version which will use the name in the nominative more often than not, I suppose. Also, the definite article is practically tacit: our article title "English Channel", for example, really means "the English Channel". For my part, I'm aware of the German word in the form "Alte" from Konrad Adenauer --Milkbreath (talk) 14:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

English normally just borrows the nominative for names and uses it everywhere. For example, Jodocus Hondius signed his maps Jodoco Hondio, but we would always use Jodocus Hondius in English, not switch between the two depending on grammatical case. Though I suppose we might borrow a different form if it's somehow more prominent—for example in the linked previous discussion of newspapers, English would just borrow whatever form was in big letters at the top of the front page. --Delirium (talk) 15:43, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

"Use the nominative" fails to address the question of "Alte Strom" (nominative form if preceded by definite article) or "Alter Strom" (nominative with no article). The caption I edited actually referred to "The Alten Strom" and I changed it to "The Alte Strom". The article on Warnemünde on German Wikipedia uses all four cases at various points and both of these two nominative forms. Michael Hardy (talk) 16:38, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Call it Alter Strom in English. Even call it "the Alter Strom" in English. German adjectives only take weak inflection after the German definite article. —Angr 17:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, right; my apologies. In this particular case, my experience is that there isn't really much of a consistent rule. To pick a semi-random example, you can find both Christliches Jugenddorfwerk Deutschlands and Christliche Jugenddorfwerk Deutschlands in mainstream English sources, about equally often. In other cases and on Wikipedia, strong inflection might be a bit more common; for example, English uses of Allgemeiner Studierendenausschuss outnumber Allgemeine Studierendenausschuss by about 10:1. --Delirium (talk) 17:18, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Seeking Burmese Language Contributors

Hi

It's really nice to finally read some articles in written in Burmese on Wikipedia - great work!

I'm a media and communications researcher from Australia, and at the moment I'm researching the Burmese language and globalisation. I'd really like to talk to the Burmese contributors to Wikipedia, to ask them about the possibilities and challenges faced in developing these kinds of resources and programs in Burmese.

Look forward to speaking to you soon,

Ko Zaw —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kozawhtet (talk • contribs) 18:39, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

There is a Burmese language Wikipedia, with more than 300 registered users. Here on the English Wikipedia, these eight users have declared themselves native Burmese speakers. Algebraist 18:50, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm...I think User:Babbob might be pulling a fast one on us... :) -Elmer Clark (talk) 04:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

to test reading habits

suggest some questions to test the habbit of reading english books —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.88.248.162 (talk) 18:48, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Tolkien ? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:26, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

No, that would be the hobbit of reading English books. ···日本穣^{? · Talk to Nihonjoe} 22:15, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

LOL doktorb _words^deeds 12:23, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Depends on which reading skill you are trying to test. Leftus (talk) 22:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the test. Are you trying to devise a test to see if someone taking the test is in the habit of reading books? I would imagine that very simple questions like "who are your two favorite authors, and why?", "what are the last three books you read, and what were they about?" and "what new book are you looking forward to reading next, and who is it by?" would give you at least some idea of whether the person taking the test ever reads any books at all. Not that a reasonably educated person couldn't fake his way through this test, but at least it would probably indicate whether the person taking the test has any knowledge of and experience with literature. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 19:18, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the OP tried posting a follow up question in wrong place. It was removed. I didn't really understand what he/she meant - something about direct vs indirect questions. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 20:50, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Huh. Yeah, I see -- or, rather, I don't, either. I wonder if he wants a questionnaire that would have questions that would reveal whether the person answering the questions is in the habit of reading books, even though the questions aren't really about literature as such. A little like asking "which country on another continent would you like to take a vacation in, and why?", but the actual answer is kind of irrelevant, because what you really want to know is whether the person answering the question has enough knowledge about other countries and geography to formulate a meaningful answer to the question... -- Captain Disdain (talk) 21:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the OP / original poster, 202.88.248.162, could rephrase the question in more detail. I think we all don´t really know what you want to know. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 21:41, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I think by saying he wants "indirect questions" he might mean he wants an idea as to how to inconspicuously determine whether some person regularly reads books (in English). I guess you could drop references to famous works of English-language literature and see if the person seems familiar with any of them. -Elmer Clark (talk) 04:48, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Not a valid point for finding out whether "any" English books are being read. Since the main objective is not an in-depth knowledge of English literature, but rather exposure to English language writing, it would miss the point. People who like reading Science Fiction or textbooks or biographies would fail your test. Heck, going by the results of "trivia night" at our favorite hang out even the local folks wouldn't pass. 71.236.23.111 (talk) 08:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Midwestern Dialect

I've looked for an article and can't find it. Is there an article on here on the Midwestern Dialect of the United States. I guess it would be more specifically the Northern Midwestern Dialect (think northwest Ohio). Not only is that what I speak, but I just read something that mentioned news broadcasters for national US news are often chosen if this is their dialect or they are taught to speak it. Another thing I read that it was the one English dialect with no accent, but I find that hard to believe. Thanks! §hep • ¡Talk to me! 23:46, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Try North American English regional phonology, General American, and Inland Northern American English, for a start. The WP articles on U.S. dialects aren't organized very well. Deor (talk) 23:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, that's what I was looking for. If anyone is curious I came across this as well: Midwest#Linguistic_characteristics. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 23:59, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

What does "no accent" mean? Isn't that a relative thing? Michael Hardy (talk) 01:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

To a point I guess it has to be relative. But thinking it through, all the dialects, Midwestern has to be the most subtle of dialects. You have the southern "drawl" or "twang" that is the easiest to pick out. You can almost always tell if someone is from Philly or Chicago by the way they speak. Yet, anything leaning either way on the issue is completely debatable from both angles. §hep • ¡Talk to me! 03:55, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

In linguistics we say "everybody has an accent." If you look at it from an extreme point of view, you might even say everybody has a dialect, the idiolect. --Kjoonlee 08:06, 4 May 2008 (UTC)