Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2006 September 21

< September 20	Language desk archive	September 22 >

Humanities Science Mathematics Computing/IT Language Miscellaneous Archives

The page you are currently viewing is an archive page. While you can leave answers for any questions shown below, please ask new questions at one of the pages linked to above.

< August September October >

nonsequitur similes

Is there a recognised class of similes that involve non sequiturs? I'm thinking of expressions like 'fat as mud', 'laughing like drains', 'right as rain' - idioms that make sense only on a kind of abstracted, almost lyrical level Adambrowne666 03:57, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Generally, it might fit the category Catachresis. To describe it, I would perhaps call it an illogical simile.---Sluzzelin 06:21, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the referral to catachresis, an interesting term, but it doesn't exactly fit here, I think. I was hoping there might be an established name for them; I was thinking it might be a fun WP article to write, but of course I can only do it if it's not original researchAdambrowne666 12:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think they are anything more then idioms "an expression whose meaning cannot be deduced from the literal definitions and the arrangement of its parts". Often strange similes are due to original meanings being lost rather then a concious effort to confuse. Only an evil plant-hater would think there is nothing right with rain and the right here may mean straight rather then good, or the expression may be related to the older "right as range". From OED "fat 5. Of mould, clay, etc.: Containing much soluble or plastic matter; having a ‘greasy’ feeling to the touch; sticky. Of limestone: Containing much lime, and few impurities; hence, Pure." As for the last you must have a good plumber as I have often heard drains gurgle. MeltBanana 13:23, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but have you ever heard a drain laugh? Excellent answer, though - I suppose I was wondering if the similes that have worn down to nonsense through age (as opposed to ones that still make some sense, for example 'to compare apples and oranges') are classed under a recognised subset. User:Adambrowne666|Adambrowne666]] 07:52, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Personification

What is the opposite of Personification

It depends on the context I guess. Objectification? Abstraction? Dehumanization?---Sluzzelin 09:09, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Another alternative: reification. - Nunh-huh 03:35, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

There's a KISS album called Animalize.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  06:06, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean 'the opposite'? Why do you think this is a meaningful phrase? ColinFine 12:18, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Multi-lingual dictionary or thesaurus?

Is there any multi-lingual dictionary or thesaurus, either on the internet or on paper? Given a word whose language is not known, I want the meaning of the word, in a single place, in the other languages.

Also, is there any scheme for phonetic ordering (parallel to lexicographic ordering) of words?

—Masatran 11:54, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

The "Online Etymology Dictionary" at http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=w&p=7 is one look at the meaning of a word, over time, in various languages.Edison 14:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Wiktionary is a possibility for the first part of your question. -- the GREAT Gavini 15:40, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

...although that is still in development. My OED CD-ROM can list words by phonetic transcription, in IPA, and presumably there is an equivalent facility in their on-line version, though you will probably have to pay a subscription to access it.--Shantavira 18:03, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Non-linguistic term for nouns with same singular and plural form

There is a term for nouns that have the same singular and plural form. I am thinking of less of a technical, linguistic term and more of a word that might be used more commonly. Also, the same singular and plural form I have in mind relates to occurrences primarily in English rather than another language, such as German, where they are more frequent.

209.219.70.3 16:51, 21 September 2006 (UTC)Allen Bass

I haven't the foggiest. The linguistic term would be uninflected plural or zero plural, I think. --Kjoonlee 01:21, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

You can read about at English plural#Nouns with identical singular and plural. --hydnjo talk 01:59, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

An older term is "indeclinable". AnonMoos 06:08, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Yet words that have the same nominative form in singular and plural are still declined for the possessive case, eg. sheep's wool. JackofOz 04:10, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks "AnonMoos". It may be an older term but it is still in use. I ran it through the OED site and found a description of a word as being the indeclinable varient of another.

Looking for a term

Is there a term for a redundant description for a word in language?

For example, "real reality", "round circle" or, one I came across the other day, "diametric opposite"—Mitaphane _talk 19:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Note that they sometimes only appear to be redundant. For example, a "real reality show" would be one that doesn't put people into some absurd situation, which could, in turn, be called "fake reality". StuRat 04:23, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Pleonasm or tautology MeltBanana 20:29, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! —Mitaphane _talk 21:09, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

A complete answer might be found at the Department of Redundancy Department at http://www.twosents.net/blog/archives/002723.php Edison 03:33, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

I often think up those while in close proximity to the Sierra mountains. :-) StuRat 04:19, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Surely you mean the Sierra range. —Tamfang 06:51, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

See also Redundancy (language) and the various links from there.--Shantavira 07:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)