Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2024 January 3

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January 3

Towns of The Bahamas

For Local government in The Bahamas#Towns, I was able to find 32 town areas in the 2022 contested elections report, but this 2019 report says there should be 41. I'm wondering if some weren't included because there were candidates running unopposed? I've had trouble finding a straightforward list of town areas on Bahamas government web sites; does anyone have access to a good source for that? -- Beland (talk) 00:00, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not familiar with the minutiae of Jamaican electoral practice, but in some other parts of the world (such as my own), not all constituencies of some administrative levels have their elections in the same year. For example, half or a a third might hold elections in one year, a half in the next or next but one, and so on. Something similar may be going on here: see Staggered elections. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.104.88 (talk) 02:34, 5 January 2024 (UTC)

San Marino, and Saint Marinus's church

The page on San Marino mentions that Saint Marinus founded San Marino in 301 upon building a church (the page on Saint Marinus himself specifies "chapel and monastery.") Meanwhile, the Basilica di San Marino was constructed in the early 18th century on the site of an earlier 4th-century church that was demolished due to its poor condition. I have some questions:

1. Is this former church the same as the one that Saint Marinus founded?
   1. The basilica's page states that this old church was also dedicated to Saint Marinus; given that Saint Marinus was presumably canonized after he died (traditionally, in the mid-4th century), was the church dedicated to someone else prior?
   2. Actually, for that matter, when was Saint Marinus canonized?
2. Are there any depictions of this old church prior to demolition?

GalacticShoe (talk) 01:47, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I can't speak for this area, but I understand that in Roman-Celtic Britain, at any rate, such religious leaders were in this period commonly recognised as Saints while still active. 'Sainthood' was often a matter of local acclamation, and perhaps recognition by a local Bishop, rather than the result of some formal canonisation process, and not necessarily approved by or even even known to the central authorities in Rome. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 51.198.104.88 (talk) 05:01, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

The section Dedication of churches § Naming a church only describes early practices in England and Wales, but these were probably not radically different from what was customary elsewhere. In fact, the source on which the description in out article is based begins its exposition with, The history of the dedications of churches in England is largely that of the dedications of churches in other parts of Catholic Christendom.^[1]  --Lambiam 07:55, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

And in the Church generally, offices could be filled by public acclamation. Anatolius, bishop of Laodicea, who saved Christians in AD 262 by marching them out dressed as women, was acclaimed at Caesarea and ordained deacon, priest and bishop in one ceremony (not to be confused with Anatolius, Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople in AD 449). 2A00:23C7:9CC0:F901:E5FB:171C:8FDE:8F18 (talk) 13:10, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

According to Canonization § Historical development, canonization only became the exclusive prerogative of the Pope in the 12th century.  --Lambiam 15:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you all very much for the clarification. GalacticShoe (talk) 01:43, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

The earliest manuscripts mentioning Saint Marinus and his life date from six centuries after his death, so all we know about him, including his claimed building of a chapel–monastery on Monte Titano, or even his presence there, is the stuff of legend. (This appears to be inconsistent with the statements in Basilica di San Marino § History, unless the document La Vita di San Severino referred to does not mention the name "Marino".) Our article on Monte Titano states, "According to the legend related to the Mount and its precincts, a small monastery existed on top of the Mount during the 8th century."  --Lambiam 15:02, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Apparently Egippius wrote in Latin. The Latin title is Commemoratorium vitae Sancti Severini,^[2] so there is no reason to use an Italian version of the title on the English Wikipedia. The name "Marinus" occurs in the text of the English translation of the book,^[3] but refers to an unrelated person.  --Lambiam 15:41, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Looks like AD 262 wasn't a good year for Christians. Henry Wace and William C Piercy (eds), A dictionary of Christian biography and literature (London 1911) recounts how "Marinus", who was about to be promoted to centurion, was denounced as a Christian by a rival. The judge sentenced him to death, sentence suspended for three hours to give him time to recant. As Marinus left the court, the bishop took him into the church. Lifting his cloak to reveal the sword at his side, he presented him with a Bible and asked him to choose. The soon-to-be-martyred Marinus took the book without hesitation. 2A00:23C7:9CC0:F901:B1F8:2B12:99E9:A29B (talk) 17:20, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I'm not going to lie, I at first misinterpreted this as the bishop lifting his own cloak to reveal a sword, threatening poor Marinus here into choosing the Bible. GalacticShoe (talk) 01:46, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to research this, Lambiam. Given that the Commemoratorium vitae Sancti Severini doesn't seem to mention the right Marinus at all, I think it might be worth scrubbing it entirely from the pages on San Marino. Also of note, the Placito Feretrano, also mentioned throughout Wikipedia pages on San Marino, mentions the monastery explicitly, perhaps being the source of that legendary 8th-century monastery. It should be pointed out though that it is ostensibly an 11th-century copy of a supposed earlier document, and as such there are doubts about its authenticity. GalacticShoe (talk) 02:07, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

To answer my own second question, there are a few depictions of San Marino as a whole in old paintings, in most cases being held (as cities are wont to be in old religious paintings) by St. Marinus himself. On Wikimedia, examples containing the whole city include this painting and this other painting, the latter of which is presented in higher quality within this stamp. Unfortunately, neither example seems to show the church/chapel/monastery in any convincing detail. There is one painting directly of San Marino, painted in the 16th century, seen here. It does seem to show the church/chapel/monastery, but from only one perspective, it's hard to make out a lot of the architectural specifics. It is a start, though. GalacticShoe (talk) 07:05, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Also interestingly enough, an archived version of San Marino's tourism page suggests that the church that Saint Marinus supposedly founded is instead the Chiesa di San Pietro. This smaller church would make a lot more sense for the chapel-monastery founding story, but at the same time the Wiki article on the church suggests it was actually created in 1689. The archived tourism page also mentions an act of donation for the Basilica di San Marino dating to July 31, 1113, adding to the messiness of attempting to pinpoint the history of these buildings. GalacticShoe (talk) 07:18, 10 January 2024 (UTC)