Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2014 February 25

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February 25

Small Catechism in Modern Times

What is the modern equivalent of this prayer? It's written in archaic English with the Thee, Thy, and Thine. I wish to know the modern equivalent: that is, whether or not people replace the Thee, Thy, and Thine with You, Your, and Yours, or they devise some other prayer, or they stick with the traditional archaic version. Do modern-day Lutheran children still pray this at the meal table? Luther also recommended that children should bless themselves with the holy cross every morning. Do Lutheran children still do this, or have they forgone this pious practice? 140.254.226.194 (talk) 18:35, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

You have linked to a page, not a prayer. There is no need for English speakers to replace anything for thou, thee, and thine. Understanding those words is part of being a native English speaker. Someone who asks whether "they have forgone this pious practice" would hardly seem to need help with thou. μηδείς (talk) 20:54, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I cannot speak of usual modern Lutheran practice, but I can say that the "asking for a blessing" on that page is essentially a version of Psalm 145, and the prayer for afterwards looks like some version of part of Psalm 136. Many modern translations of these psalms exist. I hope this gets you started. 86.157.25.240 (talk) 21:20, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Oh, and of course you are looking at an old translation from the German. There are more modern translations of the Little Catechism into English (and why not? Luther wasn't writing in English, and emphasised the use of the vernacular), like this: [1]. I don't know if anyone uses it, but it certainly has the prayers in modern English. 86.157.25.240 (talk) 21:24, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

A linguist once told me that the only people in the US who still use "thee," "thy," and "thou" regularly enough to speak them fluently tend to be either Quakers or Mormons. Wrad (talk) 22:59, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Here in the UK, I think that a fair number of high Anglicans and people from areas like Yorkshire still use thee/thou/thy often enough to be fluent, as do academics specialising in early modern literature. I don't know that I'd consider myself fluent, but I'm not bad. AlexTiefling (talk) 23:19, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Anyone who watches Emmerdale (or, like me, is forced to listen to it every night!) knows how to use 'thou', 'thee', 'thy'. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:57, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Wrad -- 19th century U.S. Quakers used a rather simplified form of ca. 1600 pronouns and verb inflections ("thee speaks" instead of "thou speakest" etc.), and I think that even that has been moribund for a while now... AnonMoos (talk) 00:27, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

AnonMoos is correct that the Quakers usually misuse the pronoun in the way he indicates. My comment was that English speakers understand the use of the pronoun, not that they can produce it. (See linguistic competence.) I suspect the majority of Americans can't produce a sequence of tenses or or use the subjunctive along with the conditional correctly either. But they understand it when they hear it. μηδείς (talk) 01:54, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Which may or may not be true but doesn't seem particularly relevant. The OP may have failed to make clear which prayer they are asking about but the more general part of their question was resonably clear. They want to know "the modern equivalent: that is, whether or not people replace the Thee, Thy, and Thine with You, Your, and Yours, or they devise some other prayer, or they stick with the traditional archaic version".

They did not ask how to translate 'thou' nor whether the word would be understood among Lutherians or anyone else. And it is fairly common among many Christians to replace such words and others in most prayers, even if they also understand the more archaic equivalents or heck, can even easily use them in everyday speech. Of course the precise words which are changed various from tradition to tradition although it's fair to say words like thou etc are usually replaced or not replaced as a set. So while I have no idea of the answer to the OP's expressed question, it does seem clear your point was largely irrelevant to it. These sort of asides are not necessarily harmful but since you generally seem concerned about sticking to the topic and avoiding debate it's worth remembering it's helpful to actually stick to the question if you feel that way.

Nil Einne (talk) 11:59, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't see how the original question is a debate question in any way, shape or form. It is essentially asking about the current practice of Lutheranism, and whether or not 21st century Lutheran children still bless themselves with the holy cross as well as pray the morning, evening, and table prayers. It's asking for facts on what has been done, not opinions on what one should do or should not do. 140.254.227.124 (talk) 15:25, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Nil has decided I am guilty of something, and is trying to see if putting words in my mouth will fit the bill he's imagined. μηδείς (talk) 18:13, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry if there was confusion. My point was that μηδείς who seems particularly sensitive to any debate or offtopic discussion on the RD was needlessly inviting such by raising a point which whether it's correct or not, is irrelevant to the question. I didn't mean to suggest the question was such although μηδείς is correct it's not clear which of the several on the page are being referred to. Nil Einne (talk) 17:49, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

The Lord's Prayer seems to stand out in the link provided this prayer. Assuming then that this is the prayer intended, the corresponding Wikipedia article The Lord's Prayer has a modern version of it. Star Lord (talk) 12:34, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Basically, "thee" and "thou" = "you." "Thy" and "thine" = "your." Wrad (talk) 15:46, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

• Roman Catholics still use this version of the Hail Mary, and I have heard of no move towards "fixing" it:

Hail Mary

Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.

Blessed art thou amongst women,

and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.

Holy Mary, Mother of God,

pray for us sinners,

now and at the hour of our death. Amen.

Note thou is used in three cases. μηδείς (talk) 19:38, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

It didn't take me very long to find a modern translation of the above, here. Alansplodge (talk) 17:50, 27 February 2014 (UTC)

You needed a translation? μηδείς (talk) 18:54, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Origin of surname "Bohiw"

I've run into a puzzle. There's an immigrant who came to America named "Mychaljo Bohiw" (in the American records). In his immigration records he says he is "Stateless." Other immigrant Bohiws that I find say that they are "Hebrew." Mychaljo Bohiw, however, was buried in a Ukranian Catholic Cemetery in Chicago.

Does anyone know where the surname "Bohiw" might have come from, and what its original spelling may have been?

Wrad (talk) 22:55, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I can't find it as a name, but it looks to me like a Ukrainian word "Богів" (corresponding to Russian "Богов" Bogov). This actually means "of the gods", so maybe it's not quite believable as a name. "-ov" is a common ending for surnames in Russian, but there are no corresponding names in "-iw" listed in Ukrainian surnames. Sorry I can't help any more than that. --ColinFine (talk) 23:59, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Final -w in Ukranian often corresponds to final -l in other slavic languages, and Bugil and Bogil show up as Slavic and Austro-Hungarian names. I found no etymology. μηδείς (talk) 01:47, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Also remember that if this immigration was a long time ago, say in the early years of Ellis Island's operation as a Federal immigration station, it is quite possible the name was not transcribed correctly into the usual English alphabet, or that the handwriting used in recording the name sometimes makes it very hard to read. Astronaut (talk) 13:29, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

MARIA LUISA PARK - SEVILLE - SPAIN

I AM DOING A PAPER ON SEVILLE SPAIN AND ITS PARKS. ONE IS CALLED MARIA LUISA PARK. CAN YOU PLEASE ADVISE IF THIS IS A WALK AROUND PARK ONLY, OR CAN ONE DRIVE AROUND IT? I DON'T KNOW HOW BIG IT IS. THANKS — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.66.26.123 (talk) 23:16, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

Does our article Maria Luisa Park help? If not, I'm sure you can find it on Google Earth. And please don't SHOUT --ColinFine (talk) 00:01, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

It is evident from Google Earth that one can cycle, or hire a horse and buggy, but not drive a motor vehicle. Since the OP is not familiar with basic netiquette I'm not so confident they could find it themselves.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:44, 26 February 2014 (UTC)