Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Entertainment/2018 June 29

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June 29

What is the best way to get good at organ music?

I have recently been listening to some music from Klaus Wunderlich, and have been inspired to take up organ music as a hobby. Problem is, I’ve only ever had piano lessons before, and don’t quite know how to transfer my skills to organ. In particular, I haven’t used a pedalboard before and also, I’ve only worked with single manual instruments.

Also, the organs I’ve seen online from the likes of Wersi and Lowrey are far too expensive for my meagre budget. And, so I’m also faced with the problem of obtaining a suitable instrument for my pastime. And so, how do I obtain an organ to practise on for less than £1,000 budget, with a decent amount of sounds, and preferably also some draw bars for an antique Hammond type sound?

What about Hauptwerk, what could that do for me, it is a virtual organ software thing?

Thank you, Pablothepenguin (talk) 13:07, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Are there any church organs nearby that'd let you practice? I had enough time to figure out what the notes of some songs like Ave Maria were on a multi-board organ-capable synthesizer in the pew room (without asking) before they asked me to stop. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:16, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Or music schools that'd teach you for less than the cost of the organ if you're content with just acquiring the skills and not playing regularly? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:23, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Maybe there's even a place that sells organ playing time in a big enough city like London or New York lol. Manhattan has a small shop that only rents strong chess players for $2.x a game after all. Well not so strong that they don't have to make a living by playing all comers for $2 a game. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:27, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

There's also professional hustlers in the park that'll play you for $5 but it's gambling on who wins so the price is higher. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 13:32, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

I live in a very small town, although we do have piano teachers, I don’t think we have any organ teachers. I’d rather teach myself how to play organ. Being self taught is less stressful and easier to fit around my busy schedule. Pablothepenguin (talk) 14:35, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Also I am not interested in church organ, I’m interested in Hammond style organ instead. Pablothepenguin (talk) 14:36, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Ah, I didn't know Hammond organs are never church organs. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:51, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Except that many gospel music churches use Hammond organs. (You get wise, you get to church).--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:38, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Does anyone know the answer to my questions? Pablothepenguin (talk) 00:02, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes: "Practice, practice, practice." —107.15.157.44 (talk) 06:44, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Um, isn't that the whole problem? The OP wants to "Practice, practice, practice" but doesn't know how to get the tools to practice? Nil Einne (talk) 15:47, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

Yes, that is correct, that is the issue I need explaining here. Pablothepenguin (talk) 21:53, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

I do not not wish to take up church organ, I am interested in the organs stylings of such folks as Klaus Wunderlich, and want to be able to make my own recordings of popular song covers and upload them to the internet. Of particular interest to me are ABBA and the Beatles. I would love to practice this kind of stuff but can’t afford an instrument to do it on. I can see things on eBay which are very cheap but are of dubious quality, I was looking for something with draw bars and an lcd screen, and a LOT of buttons, because I like having lots of buttons. Also, what organ sounds can I download off the internet which are suitable for this type of music. Hauptwerk is too classical and expensive so not suitable itself. I do have an 88 note keyboard which I can connect up to my computer. How do I get jazz organ sounds on that for covering popular music. Pablothepenguin (talk) 20:12, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Is Elton John's song where he sings "me and Suzie had so much fun" still an organ? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 20:31, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

What on Earth are you talking about? Pablothepenguin (talk) 22:12, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

An organ is played in "Crocodile Rock", seen at 3:17 in a performance. The Wikipedia article names singer Elton John himself as playing a Farfisa organ as well as piano, presumably by double-tracking on the recording. DroneB (talk) 23:33, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Is there any way to cheaply imitate a jazz organ on a modern PC?

I am wondering if I can use my Windows 10 laptop to cheaply imitate the Klaus Wunderlich sound? Is it possible at all to do Hammond Organ sounds this way? What about with an iOS device? Any insights would be beneficial to me. Remember, Hauptwerk is not the answer, it only does church and theatre organ sounds, I am looking for Hammond and Jazz organ sounds. Any insights?

Thank you. Pablothepenguin (talk) 22:13, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

I'm sure there are Hammond organ software synths e.g. several are mentioned in these discussions where it's also mentioned there are plenty more [1] [2]. Also this wiki [3] which appears to be about 16 years old. One interesting thing mention in the second discussion is that for a close range live performance, emulating the Leslie speaker is difficult given the rotation but I don't know how true this is. Our article for example quotes an expert mentioning the Neo Ventilator [4] which while not simple desktop computer software, seems to be entirely digital. But the more significant points are that it probably depends entirely of what level of accuracy you're trying to achieve and what you're willing to spend.

Also I would suggest it's partly a moot point until you have the hardware sorted. You mention a keyboard above. I have next to no idea how suitable it is for trying to emulate a Hammond organ. It sounds like you don't yet have your drawbar controls or pedal board sorted. From what I can tell, these are essential elements for properly emulating a Hammond organ. [5] When you have the hardware sorted, you can start to look at software perhaps even testing different software to see if it fits your needs. It may be worthwhile doing these simultaneously in case your hardware is not compatible with your software, I would assume pedal boards and draw bars tend to follow some part of the MIDI standard but I'm not sure.

Of course sorting out the hardware will also come down significantly to the earlier factors I mentioned namely how much you're willing to spend, and what sort of accuracy you want to achieve. Notably on the accuracy point there are different possible areas of accuracy. There's how closely it emulates the sound of a hammond, but there's also how well it emulates the feel of a Hammond. For example, it's possible there is certain equipment that is more similar to what you are used to and can be used to emulate the sound of the Hammond well with training. But if this equipment is somewhat dissimilar in the way it works and feels, this may make it difficult for you to adapt to an actual Hammond or something which tries to clone it as far as possible in operation and feel if you ever want to. In addition, as mentioned in some of the discussions, what the equipment looks like could also matter to you if you plan public performance.

Ultimately you will have to decide what you want to choose based on what you find out from research and advice and knowing what you want. (From my experience with anything like this, and someone also said the same thing in one of the discussions I came across [6], asking which is the best for these sort of things tends to result just in a lot of replies from people based on their own biases, very limited experience etc.)

As for that advice and research, while maybe some expert is going to suddenly come out of no where, I think the earlier replies suggest it is unlikely. This is simply too specialised a subject that we can provide good info for. I mean sure we can search for refs, but even assessing the refs is very difficult since it's quite likely they are simply forums and that sort of thing and many of us likely know far less about music and Hammond organs than you do.

Your best bet is to visit one or more specialised forums (discussion boards, websites etc), look at existing discussions and info, then do some research on eBay or seller sites etc to find what sort of equipment you want to consider based on what is said. Then make a post in whatever discussion board seems the best fit with your list and any questions you have. If you really can't come up with a list based on the info already out there, then you could always ask without one, except the more generic a question the more likely it is to get fewer and more useless answers.

I find it fairly unlikely there isn't a lot of info out there, I mean as said the wiki I found seems to be 16 years old. And a very quick search found this admittedly not very active forum [7]. Then there are also surely many sites at least dedicated to music e.g. those earlier or [8] [9]. I mean even simple commentary is easy to find e.g. [10]).

But if you really can't find sufficient info, perhaps the best bet is to find someone with experience with Hammond organs especially cheap clones in the UK and ask them. For example, look on Youtube for people playing such things. (A quick search found a bunch, how much of it is using equipment with your budget and is sufficently accurate for your needs again your best placed to research and answer.) Or look for a music teacher somewhere else in the UK. Even if they want some small reasonable payment for their time, they are likely the best able to provide the necessary advice. The responses here thus far strongly suggest either no one here has it, or they aren't interested in providing it. I'd note a very basic question you probably need to consider is whether you really want to go down the desktop/laptop route.

As noted in some of the discussions, and I presume already known to anyone with any experience of making music on a computer, a big issue is getting sufficiently low latency. While it generally isn't impossible, it can be tricky. This is something which shouldn't arise with a standalone module except that's a lot less versatile and also if you already have a suitable computer, probably more expensive.

Nil Einne (talk) 09:51, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

BTW, I noticed there has been no mention of our article Clonewheel organ thus far. I'm not saying it's the best quality but it looks to me like it's useful to look at. If you haven't read it I'm not sure why since it's easy to find and seems a basic first step. Nil Einne (talk) 09:53, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Consider buying a Digital piano such as the Kawai CN series that I bought for piano practice and which turned out to provide at no extra cost(!) a plethora of buttons that include one that synthesizes a fairly satisfactory church organ. DroneB (talk) 15:03, 3 July 2018 (UTC)