Wikipedia:Peer review/Strapping Young Lad/archive1

Strapping Young Lad

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've completely rewritten the article and expanded it in the last couple of months, hopefully it will be up to FA standards soon. Help me sort out any problems.

Thanks, Gocsa (talk) 01:19, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

indopug

• Not sure about some of the sources' notability/reliability. (I guess they're all OK for interviews):

• The Church of Devin Townsend - Yeah, it's a kind of on the margin, but only 2 references, and they are really important, and there's no other way to cite radio interviews, I think
• sputnikmusic - fan reviews are definite NO…even to gauge "fan opinion".
• Soundscape webzine - removed it
• Chronicles of chaos - 2 reviews and some interviews, CoC is an extreme metal magazine, and a really old one, I think it is usable, you won't find SYL reviews and/or interviews in magazines like Rolling Stone...
• Bilistering.com - Only 1 interview and 1 concert review
• Metal-rules.com - Only interviews are used, and a concert review
• Tartarean Desire Webzine - Only 1 interview and 1 concert review
• Jukebox - replaced it with Blabbermouth.net reference
• Terrorizer article/author name? - Yeah, that I don't know.. I could only find that this interview was in the magazine in August..
• About.com for reviews? - I don't understand, heavymetal.about.com writes reviews, and they're not a minor, or fan site
• Metal Monk UK - I deleted that one
• indieworkshop.com; esp. considering you're including a list of theirs - I deleted that one, not really notable, you're right

• Don't link to Rocklists as it may be a copy-vio; if you can't find the list on the official magazine website just cite it to the magazine itself (author/article/issue) and exclude any mention of rocklist and the link.

But I don't know the author/article/issue of those two lists, it's not on the rocklist.net site, why is a list of albums copy-vio anyway?

• Similarly for the liner notes at musicbrainz. Just cite to the CD.

I have followed the instructions at Template:Cite album-notes, so it should be OK to cite the musicbrainz database as well, or am I wrong?

• Interview with Strapping Young Lad Interview??
• Please incorporate the samples into the prose of the text and provide captions for each. The way it is now seems pointless to me. I wonder if six non-free images would be acceptable at FAC, four might be more apt.

I've added three samples into the text, I hope the captions are OK.

• The first paragraph of Live performances seems over-the-top (!), could you tone it down just a little bit? I feel as if a lot of things have repeated. Also rewrite "His over the top mannerism, absurd one-liners and offensive behaviour even led to him issuing a statement in which he apologized to Symphony X fans for the way he treated them during The Devin Townsend Band's 2003 tour with the band."; I think "even led to him" would imply that his apology was part of his offensive behaviour. "issuing a statement in which he apologized" can be "issuing an apology".

Could you help me rephrase this paragraph?

• "parodic take on" --> parody??
• "Townsend favored using" --> "Townsend used"
• I don't like how you write October 12 and 13, 1997; on my comp it appears as "12 October and 13 1997"! Best to remove 12 and 13; just october is fine.
• The word "Magazine" should never start in caps and be italicised; "magazine" will do after the italicised magazine name.
• indopug (talk) 04:10, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Final comments from indopug

• Not sure those two album covers will escape fair-use paranoia at FAC. Descriptions of what they are commonly called might be more suitable for the album articles anyway. If you think its necessary, give a proper, specific, FU rationale. - Don't they have a proper and specific FU rationale? Have you read them? The 5th and 6th points are the really specific ones. I thought the rationales were OK this way.
• Rocklist is copyvio because it reprints without permission articles from magazines (for which otherwise you had to pay money for). If you can't find articles/issue info, search google for that same list (eg: best metal albums ever, Metal magazine) and if you're lucky, a website would have listed publications of the issue of that list. In any case, remove any mention of rocklist.
• The above logic applies to all magazine articles reprinted in other website, like that Kerrang! --> refer it direct to Kerrang! itself, making no mention of the site.
• I hear that even interviews aren't being allowed from non-RS sites, so I hope you find backups just in case. - I don't think I'd be able to find replacements, but we'll se.. They'll have to understand it's not quantum physics, it's extreme metal, so the only possible sources are interviews on these kind of sites.
• I don't see how Metal-rules, Alien CD release is a interview/concert review anyway. - Yeah, all right, it's not, it's an article about the album, and the album signing, but it mentions the Revolver magazine list, so I used it as a reference, and I think it's not a copy-vio.
• Check for MoS: The Evil Dead, The New Black. Ozzfest and other tours/festivals should have no italics.
• Please remove all mention of lists of bands they toured with: "The Agony Scene, Misery Signals and Reflux." They add absolutely nothing, and make readability that much worse. Just to say they toured the USis more than enough.
• I think overall you can reduce details about tours, they're generally not very interesting/compelling in an article regarding the band. - Er, what should we get rid of? I don't think there's that many info about touring, every article about bands contain info on tours, the most important ones, eg. Download, Rock am Ring, or Ozzfest are highly respected and important festivals.

• Reduce this paragraph, too many trivial details (as per above two points): "The band embarked on a headlining tour in the United States with...supporting Arch Enemy in the UK." Words like unfortunately aren't encyclopedic. After reducing this one, you can merge the next (rather stubby) para with it; remember to reword accordingly for good flow. I also don't think that guy being replaced for a while is very noteworthy.

I deleted the part about Arch Enemy, and the "unfortunately", I left in the part about the bassist Byron Stroud and his substitutions, it's not that noteworthy, but I think the fact that the whole time he was simultaneously in two pretty important bands, Fear Factory and SYL, and there were times when he couldn't play at two different places at the same time is noteworthy. Also, the two occasions when he was substituted, both times he was substituted by well-known, well-established musicians.

• I don't see how he fulfilled his intention to take a hiatus? The breakup after new Black? - Yeah, it was a bit cloudy back then, he originally announced a hiatus he would take right after the band finished touring (Ozzfest), he announced it before the Ozzfest tour. So about August/September Ozzfest ended, the band never toured or recorded again, and there were rumors of a break-up, drummer Gene Hoglan tried to dismiss the rumors, but then, I think the first time the permanent break-up was officicially announced was the May 2007 press conference. So between the August 2006 and May 2007 time it was a bit cloudy, it kinda hang in the air, it was officially only a break, a hiatus from tourind and recording then it turned into a break-up. I don't know if it's clear if someone reads the article..
• "The New Black, the band's fifth and final studio album..." can this be a new section? If you agree make sure to reword for prose also. - Hope it's OK, I just split it at this paragraph.
• Humour/humor?
• Please don't capitalize, link and italicise the wrood "magazine" after the name of a magazine. Make it like [[Stylus Magazine|Stylus]] magazine throughout.
• Move the Far Beyond metal sample to lyrical themes.

indopug (talk) 07:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

A very short comment from Kakofonous (talk · contribs)

• Please see WP:DASH for guidelines on using dashes. I notice some problems with the current usage. --Kakofonous (talk) 23:01, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

 Done Gocsa (talk) 00:05, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Burningclean

• This is another gem from Gocsa. I don't notice much wrong at all.
  • Are there anymore images of the band or its members that can be added? I think the a picture of Gene would be pretty cool. It's fine if you can't but it would be nice. - Yeah, no.. I haven't found more photos that are free to use.
    • Here are some Gene Jed

• I've been browsing through Flickr a lot of late searching for free Wiki Commons-acceptable pictures, and I can tell you that those pics doesn't fulfill criteria. No harm in asking the uploader to changing the license. indopug (talk) 05:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• And is it that important to have a photo of the drummer and/or guitarist just standing there? I thought it wasn't worth the effort to ask for permission, I only wanted a good photo of Townsend, mostly because of his appearance, and I think it's not that long of an article to stuff it with 5-6 pictures. Although if the two album covers must go, then maybe.. Gocsa (talk) 17:02, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• Also, the Gene pic is not from a Strapping Young Lad concert.. Gocsa (talk) 17:04, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

No, that's fine. i ws just wondering. I just think Gene is a great drummer so he could have a picture. I like the album covers in there, no need to remove them. Burningclean _[speak] 22:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

• • Refs 9 and 10 have an un-needed space.
  • "In June 2006 Strapping Young Lad embarked on a short festival tour of Europe (including performances at the Rock am Ring and Rock im Park festivals in Germany and the Download Festival in England)" Is there a need for the parentheses?
  • Can the last para of the "Live performances" section be merged somewhere? I'm not a very big fan of one line paragraphs.
  • Can you add links to the instruments in the band members section
  • There is a missing space between authors in ref 49. I'm not sure why the quotation marks are ther either.
  • Stylus Magazine in ref 5 should be in italics - I don't know.. I know periodicals should be in italics (magazines, etc.), but Stylus Magazine, even though it has magazine in its name, is only a webzine, an online magazine, like Pitchfork Media, and I think the rule is that only offline magazines, like Rolling Stone, should be in italics.
    • I see. I didn't know it was just a webzine. I suppose I should have looked.
  • Can you format the date differently in ref 11 Instead of (1998-10), can you make it October 1998?

That's all I got for you. Burningclean _[speak] 19:32, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

This is easily FA. Burningclean _[speak] 01:02, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed one more thing: All of the members should be listed under Former members in the infobox. Maby for the section listing the band memmbers, have the final members listed under a sub-section titled "Final members". Burningclean _[speak] 00:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it can be like Nirvana, or Soundgarden, or other bands that had well-established line-ups, if you look at those kind of articles, you'll see the stabile line-up is listed under band members and the "former former" members are listed under former members. SYL had the same line-up for 10 years, so..

M3tal H3ad

Looking good, i can't see anything that needs fixing apart from

• PopMatters wrote that - You need to attribute the quote to the reviewer - Adrien Begrand of Popmatters, same for other reviews

Why? I don't think it's compulsory, and many other articles do it the same way (eg. Nine Inch Nails, I think).

Because one reviewer does not represent the view of everyone working for the magazine, it's one person's opinion. M3tal H3ad (talk) 04:46, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

and the example you provided backs up my statement - "Rolling Stone's Rob Sheffield described the album as" - "All Music Guide's Steve Huey states that "Nine Inch Nails " M3tal H3ad (talk) 04:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

• Last.fm link doesn't really add anything to the article is is similar to a blog (anyone can edit the artist description so someone might bring that up. Good work. M3tal H3ad (talk) 03:46, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

J Milburn

Sorry, reviewing slipped my mind. Thanks for the reminder. Anyway, this looks pretty brilliant at first glance, so I doubt there will be much.

• "After he finished touring with the Wildhearts," the 't' in 'the' should be capitalised.
• "he used the Wildhearts'" ditto.
• "Although Townsend played the majority of the instruments on the record himself—using a drum machine for the drum tracks—there were songs which also featured a number of local session musicians, including Townsend's future band mate, guitarist Jed Simon." Ref?

I have never seen such a statement referenced in music articles, as the album itself acts as a reference (the line-up is listed on the back cover or somewhere, the drum programming too)

You can reference that, it even has its own citation template. J Milburn (mutalk) 20:24, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• Last paragraph of "Heavy as a Really Heavy Thing and City (1995–1998)" could do with some more references.
• "There were also other reasons behind the break; numerous conflicts between Townsend and Century Media and the frontman's battle with bipolar disorder." Perhaps "There were also other reasons behind the break; numerous conflicts between Townsend and Century Media and the frontman's battle with bipolar disorder contributed to Townsend's desire for hiatus."
• "Townsend did not rest between 1999 and 2002" Not quite the right tone- just say something like "Townsend continued to work between..."
• "band would perform live" -> "performed live"
• Paragraph after the quote is completely devoid of references.
• "new Strapping Young Lad album will be released in 2002" would, not will.
• "The band toured heavily throughout 2003 and 2004 making stops in the United States, Europe, Canada, and Australia" Ref?
• "On November 2, 2004 a live performance DVD was released entitled For Those Aboot to Rock: Live at the Commodore, which included the band's live performance recorded on January 16, 2004 at the Commodore Ballroom in Vancouver. It also featured two music videos, "Relentless" and "Detox", and interviews with band members." Ref?

The DVD release itself acts as a reference.

Again, it would look better if you cited it- see the cite video template. J Milburn (talk) 20:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• "mostly favouring the progressive element he continues to bring to extreme metal;" You're stating opinion as fact there; could you turn it into a direct quote or NPOVify it?
• "The band embarked on a headlining tour in the United States in April and May 2005, then went on to tour in Europe. Starting at the end of June, they toured North America as part of the Sounds of the Underground tour." Ref?
• "the Transgression Tour in the US." -> "the Transgression Tour in the U.S.."
• "Next, the band joined Fear Factory on the Transgression Tour in the US. Consequently, Stroud performed with both Fear Factory, and Strapping Young Lad at every concert. Strapping closed the year with a tour in the UK." Ref?
• "and finished the album by May." Ref?
• "was released on July 11, 2006." Ref?

Reference a release date? You must be kidding.

Not really- references should be found for everything on a FA. The About.com review mentions it, and that's a good source. J Milburn (talk) 20:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• "The record company wanted" Name the company, and reference the line.

It is in ref50 in the next sentence where Townsend stated that the album wasn't rushed. I don't think we need to reference each and every sentence. I mean referencing using the same ref in sentences following each other. It's obvious the statement is true, as Townsend denies that the album was rushed beacuse of the strict Ozzfest deadline (and that is referenced).

• "critical, as well as a commercial success." Comma after 'commercial'.
• "Stylus magazine's Cosmo Lee" Magazine names should be italicised- that applies to the refs too.

But Stylus isn't an offline, printed magazine, not a real "magazine", as Revolver, Rolling Stone, etc., only a webzine.

• "A music video was shot in late May to accompany the sole single from the album, "Wrong Side"." Ref?
• "In June 2006 Strapping Young Lad embarked on a short festival tour of Europe, including performances at the Rock am Ring and Rock im Park festivals in Germany and the Download Festival in England, which was followed by a second stage appearance at Ozzfest in July and August, where they played to some of their largest audiences in their career." Ref?
• Last paragraph before 'musical style' is short of refs.

The same as before, why sould we reference release dates and the stuff albums contain? The albums themselves are the proofs. Just look at other music articles.

Featured articles really should be well referenced. As I said above, a lot of reviews will mention the release dates. J Milburn (talk) 20:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, seems stupid to be so picky about refs when there are so many footnotes (especially when there is such a badly referenced FA on the main page right now...) but the referencing on featured articles really should be very close to perfect. I'll finish off the review once you have worked on the issues I've raised here. J Milburn (talk) 17:40, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Why reference tours? I haven't seen tour info referenced in music articles, even recently featured ones, only when something noteworthy happened, or something like that. Why overreference an article? It makes is more unreadable, and I've seen articles fail FA just because of overreferencing. Gocsa (talk) 18:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm a big believer in referencing. It's probably just personal preference, but I think referencing on Wikipedia is far, far too lax. I don't see why tours shouldn't be referenced- it's still information, isn't it? Why should it be treated any differently to, say, information regarding the band's formation? J Milburn (talk) 20:33, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll have to side with Gocsa here; referencing release dates, personnel and what is included in a DVD is a bit overboard and might prove detrimental to the article. It is obvious that the media (CD/DVD/whatever) acts as a reference in those cases where you asked for a reference. Also, the rule on referencing is not to cite to whatever is possible, but to cite only information that is potentially disputable. indopug (talk) 15:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I think I've addressed all the issues raised here, except for the release date kinda stuff. Gocsa (talk) 23:55, 28 March 2008 (UTC)