Wikipedia:Peer review/Shergar/archive1

Shergar

Shergar's is a sorry tale. One of the finest racehorses of the 20th century, winner of the Epsom Derby, Irish Derby and King George VI and Queen Elizabeth Stakes in the same year he captured the public's eye through a series of wins. Two years after he was retired to stud, he was stolen and a ransom for £2 million was issued. Negotiations broke down, and the horse was never seen again. No individual or group has admitted responsibility, although an IRA supergrass says they were to blame. Whoever it was, it was a sad loss, mostly for the poor horse.

This article has been re-written and is now up for constructive comments, with a possible FAC as the next step. - SchroCat (talk) 14:25, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Comments from TR

First batch – to end of racing career.

• Background and early training
  • "he was foaled"? a technical term presumably but would it be a frightful solecism just to say he was born?
  • I promised to bring my almost flawless ignorance of racing to bear on my review here, but I just record that even I know what sires and dams are, and I don't think blue links are needed.
    • May I mull these over? I suspect that if they links are not there, they will be added, and if we don't say "foaled", the horsey lot will be raising a quizzical eye! - SchroCat (talk) 19:33, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
  • "rode him in the run up" – I think I might hyphenate run-up
• 1981: three-year-old season
  • "Surely this is the time to bet like men" – you reckless creature! I look forward to seeing what that quote provokes at FAC.
  • "the Chester Vase was being run" – do we need the "being"?
  • "half-a-mile" – I don't think I'd hyphenate that.
  • "Swinburn asked Shergar" – reads a bit oddly. I wonder if "urged" or some such would read better than "asked".
  • "furlongs" – link, please. I was taught, circa 1959, what a furlong was but I have forgotten.
  • "Shergar was "one of the best ... [he had] ridden"" – not sure the direct speech adds much. I'd consider simplifying this as "Shergar was one of the best he had ever ridden" or something similar.
  • "to win by 4 lengths" – but two paras earlier he won by "four" lengths – consistency of numbering.
  • "had not be practicing" – had not been practising?

That's it for now. Looking excellent so far. More shortly. – Tim riley talk 16:08, 5 October 2018 (UTC)

• All done, bar the first two, which I will mull over before we get to FAC. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 19:33, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Concluding

Sorry for the long delay. Truth to tell I forgot I hadn't finished. (Old, old, Master Shallow!)

• Stud career
  • "Thoroughbred" – the capital looks a bit odd, but if it’s the usual form, then fine.
• Theft
  • "the threats that been given" – made?
• "The Aga Khan had several reasons rationale" – a word too many here?
• First approach by the thieves
  • "the calls … was undertaken" – plural noun with singular verb
• Second approach by the thieves
  • "Shergar was still alive, there had been some speculation" – stronger stop than a comma wanted.
  • "the name of the Irish singer" – I think I'd make the article indefinite: there are other Irish singers.
• Speculation and hoaxes
  • "The mafia" – capital M? It is capitalised in the WP article.

That's my lot. Please let me know when you go to FAC. Tim riley talk 09:12, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

• Many thanks Tim, all worth waiting for as always! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 10:30, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Comments from KJP1

It's looking good. Thoughts below:

Lead

• "In 1999 a supergrass, formally in the Provisional Irish Republican Army (IRA)" - "formerly"?
• breaking off negotiations - the first para. says these were terminated by the thieves, while the fourth says they were broken off "when the syndicate did not accept...." The body makes clear it was the thieves, I wonder if the lead could be clarified?

1981

• "Surely this is the time to bet like men." You'll know better than me, but my understanding of MoS is that punctuation goes outside the quote - as you do elsewhere - unless the quote is the entire sentence, which it isn't here. Or here, "Only then did I discover there was another horse on the horizon."

• I'll have a check when I'm back with the sources, but I think they are in the original text. - SchroCat (talk) 10:29, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Theft

• "a retired Irish Army caption, Sean Berry," - "captain".
• "The Aga Khan had several reasons rationale for non-payment of the ransom" - a hangover rationale from an earlier edit.?
• "He was unsure of whether Shergar would be returned even if the money was paid, and that if they conceded to the demands, it would mean that every high-value horse in Ireland would have been a target for further thefts" - aside from whether the "of" is necessary, I'm finding this sentence a bit complex. He's "unsure" as to whether Shergar would be returned, but is he "unsure" about whether payment would encourage further kidnappings? Perhaps something like, "He was unsure whether Shergar would be returned even if the money was paid, and concerned that, if the kidnappers' demands were met, it would make every high-value horse in Ireland a target for future thefts"?

First approach by the thieves

• "the Maxwell's house" - unless his wife was involved, and she's not mentioned, can the three instances of this just be "Maxwell's house"?
• "it is more likely that the calls, and the focus on the high-profile activity on Belfast, was undertaken to confuse the authorities away from what was happening with Shergar elsewhere" - just a suggestion, but I wonder if this is a little clearer, "it is more likely that the calls, and the ensuing focus on the high-profile activity in Belfast, were undertaken to distract the authorities from what was happening with Shergar elsewhere"?

Second approach by the thieves

• "A demand of £2 million was made for the return of Shergar, and a contact number in France" - perhaps, "A demand of £2 million was made for the return of Shergar, and a contact number in France was requested". Or just "A demand of £2 million was made for the return of Shergar, and for a contact number in France"...
• "The call was ended, and no further negotiations or comment has been heard from the thieves since" - perhaps, "The call was ended, and the thieves never made any further contact"?
• "The syndicate attempted re-establish contact with the gang" - "The syndicate attempted to re-establish contact with the gang"...

Negotiations examined

• "The syndicate committee put together a report for the wider committee" - don't understand what this wider committee they're reporting to comprises?
• "The conclusion was reached after taking into account the factors that the ransom demand included £100 notes, which do not exist." - Aren't there a number of factors including the non-existence of the £100 notes? And should this be "which did not exist"? Perhaps something like, "They reached this conclusion after taking a number of factors into account. The ransom demand included £100 notes, which did not exist. Many of the demands....
• Following the above - why is it physically impossible to get from Ireland to Paris in 18 hours? That sounds doable. Was it the impossibility of getting the money in that time and if so, can this be made clear by rewording?

• Let me check the source on this one. It's certainly easy enough now, but I'm not sure about in '83, or whether there were other factors. - SchroCat (talk) 11:04, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Police investigation

• "It was either light green of light blue" - "It was either light green or light blue".

Speculation and hoaxes

• Your call obviously, but the Sunday Sport story is so obviously nonsense that I wonder if it's even worth including - given that paper's well-founded reputation for just making things up. It's not "serious" speculation, if you see what I mean. But I could just be being super sensitive after my tabloid mauling at Sandringham!

• I think the inclusion is OK, as we're using a reliable source to report on what a tabloid printed. What could help is a footnote to say that the Sport was well known for downright fabrication, and more a porn mag in tabloid newspaper form than anything else! - SchroCat (talk) 11:04, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

• "Eight weeks after Shergar was stolen, Stan Cosgrove was approached senior detectives" - "Eight weeks after Shergar was stolen, Stan Cosgrove was approached by senior detectives".

Insurance

• "the Aga Kahn was one of the uninsured members" - Khan.
• "Cosgrove, who insured with the Norwich Union (now part of Aviva), who refused to pay," - "Cosgrove was insured with the Norwich Union (now part of Aviva), who refused to pay,".

Later developments

• "The strategy was expensive, paying for arms and explosives for the IRA, and for political activity, advertising and salaries for Sinn Féin." Perhaps, "The strategy was expensive, requiring payment for arms and explosives for the IRA, and for political activity, advertising and salaries for Sinn Féin".
• "After the success of the operation, it was decided to undertake another ransom, this time for Shergar" - perhaps, "After the success of the operation, it was decided to undertake another ransom (kidnapping or theft), this time of Shergar".
• "the plot to steal and ransom Shergar was from Kevin Mallon" - devised by? And he does have a redirect, although it's not great.

• Yes, I saw that, but I think it may be more of a hinderance than help for any reader hoping to find out more about the person. - SchroCat (talk) 11:04, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

• "and that Shergar had been killed quickly in the process after the horse panicked" - would "early on" work better than "quickly"?
• "Mallon thought he was under close surveillance, and he thought that releasing the horse was too risky" - is the "he thought" required?

Remains

• "and would be difficult to get permission to dig on the land" - "and that it would be difficult to get permission to dig on the land".
• "town of strong republicanism, once nicknamed the "Falls Road of the South"—a reference to the Falls Road, Belfast, a strongly republican area" - to avoid near repetition something like, "town of strong republicanism, once nicknamed the "Falls Road of the South"—a reference to the Falls Road, Belfast, a highly republican area"? Or similar.

A horribly sad tale, well-told here. Look forward to seeing its progress. KJP1 (talk) 07:49, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

• Many thanks KJP, as always - a great batch of comments, nearly all followed, with the exception of the ones I need to check the sources for. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:04, 14 October 2018 (UTC)