Wikipedia:Peer review/Saruman/archive1

Saruman

This peer review discussion has been closed.
Peer Review requested with the short term aim of getting to GA. Particular concerns are any pro-POV for the topic and the dreaded in-universe perspective. Also, can anyone who's not a Rings geek understand this? Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 22:36, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Ruhrfisch comments: Overall well done and I must say this does one of the best jobs I have read on WP of presenting the subject from an out of universe perspective. Some comments for possible improvement:

• Is it worth mentioning the other three Istari (Radagast the Brown and the Blue Wizards)? (thus do I betray my Rings geek status)
  • :) I've left it out because it seems off topic. There're hints of an interesting relationship between Radagast and Saruman, who seems to resent his lesser colleague, but I'm not convinced Wikipedia is the place to go into that. It comes from only two scraps of information, one in the text of LoTR itself and one in Unfinished Tales. 4u1e (talk) 16:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
• For "Date of death" in the infobox, would only died physically read better? Or perhaps physical death only?
  • I'd happily lose it altogether, to be honest. I'm not sure there's actually a ref for this - it may be fanon rather than canon. 4u1e (talk) 18:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
    • I've footnoted instead. This all seems a bit fannish, though. 4u1e (talk) 16:16, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
• The article is understandably sparse on images - would it make sense to have a Christopher Lee as Saruman picture in the infobox (that way the images wouldn't all be at the end)? Also are any of the Brothers Hildebrandt calendar illustrations suitable here (as fair use, obviously)?
  • I'm a bit wary of fair use. If such a use is acceptable, then yes it's a good plan. 4u1e (talk) 18:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
• One text box uses a footnote (ref 9), the other says "The Return of the King p. 363". I think the citation style to the LoTR books should be consistent, plus I think the Shippey reference in the text box should be referenced.
• Would a line separating the quoted text and the notes in the boxes help, like an <hr> tag?
• While this is quite detailed, not all the places where attribution is made are referenced or referenced properly. For example (not an exhaustive list):
  • last paragraph of Characteristics section - give some pages or chapters in Unfinished Tales?
  • these indirect quotes need refs Saruman is most often described by other characters as a traitor or treacherous; the terms are used by Gandalf, Elrond, Treebeard and even by Sauron's Orc Grishnákh. Gandalf describes him as proud, cold and scornful.
  • The first paragraph in the Charateristics section has two direct quotations without a reference immediately following the sentence they are in.
  • Treebeard's attitude towards Saruman also seems to be unreferenced.
  • Saruman's own appellations (Many coloured, the Ring maker) in the very last paragraph of the article need refs.
• I think the style of the Notes must be consistent, crrently it is not. For example, J.R.R. Tolkien is referred to as only "Tolkien" in some places (ref 4, 5) and "Tolkien, J.R.R." in other places (refs 12-15), or omitted entirely as some works have no author listed ("Letters"). Meanwhile his son is "Tolkien, C." and Shippey is last name only. In the DVD commentary notes it is first name then last name i.e. "Fran Walsh". This will be a big problem at FAC if not fixed beforehand.
  • It's partly an inconsistency in the templates, but more an inconsistency by me! 4u1e (talk) 18:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
    • OK, I've reversed firtname/lastname for the DVD refs. I've added JRR where appropriate. I've left Shippey as is, because JRR and C Tolkien only have initials in order to differentiate them. 4u1e (talk) 16:32, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
• I think the biggest potential concern is that only one critic (non-Tolkien source) is cited on Saruman in the books. Surely other academics besides SHippey have commented on Saruman? For NPOV, multiple view points are needed.

Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 22:30, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Certainly does - I'll get to work on them. I could really use some help on criticism from others - Shippey (whose stated aim is to promote Tolkien) is the only third party I've used, but I've not yet found another critic who actually says anything meaningful about Saruman. 4u1e (talk) 18:28, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not know Tolkien criticism that well - not sure who else could be cited. Soryy, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 14:35, 18 March 2008 (UTC)