Wikipedia:Peer review/Palpatine/archive3

Palpatine

This is the third peer review request for this article. The first two can be found here: Wikipedia:Peer review/Palpatine/archive1 and Wikipedia:Peer review/Palpatine/archive2.

I rewrote much of this article to emphasize the character's role outside the Star Wars universe per the guideline Writing About Fiction. This article has changed dramatically since it first appeared at peer review and FAC. It was a good article before, but apparently not what the Wikipedia community at FAC was looking for. Explanations of the changes I made can be found here: Talk:Jabba the Hutt. Any suggestions for improvement of the article to meet FAC standards will be appreciated. Dmoon1 04:46, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment Haven't had a chance to go over it with a fine toothcomb, though it definitely is worthy as previous Star Wars character FA's by DMoon1. If I find anything amiss, I'll be sure to get in touch with Dmoon1. There's one bit though;

" Ian McDiarmid required little make-up in The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, he remembers, "I'm ... slightly aged [in Attack of the Clones]. In the last film, I had a fairly standard make-up on, but now, they're starting to crinkle my face."[50] "

The following words "he remembers" after the first sentence seem possibly awkward, but this is only my personal opinion. Could "he remembers" be changed to "remembering", "reminiscing" or something in a similar vein? LuciferMorgan 08:34, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I changed this to "he recalled". Please let me know if you find anything else that sounds awkward or needs to be addressed. Dmoon1 12:01, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment Very nice work so far. My main concern is whether the casual reader will be a little lost when reading the article, as even though I know the films and the character quite thoroughly, I was a little confused at parts. The "Appearances" section starts off fine, but when it gets to his role in Episodes II and III it starts becoming a little rushed. For example, Count Dooku and his relationship to Palpatine kinda come out of nowhere.

I expanded some instances where the narrative seemed rushed; I want to keep the plot sections as concise as possible. If you point some other examples out I'll see what I can do. Dmoon1

I found this quote in "Literature" to be misplaced: "These novels demonstrate how the Jedi are blind to Palpatine's true identity as a Sith Lord. In Shatterpoint, Mace Windu remarks to Yoda, "A shame [Palpatine] can't touch the Force. He might have been a fine Jedi." Eh?

I'm not sure what you don't understand. Mace Windu and Yoda, the two most powerful Jedi at the time, could not detect that Palpatine was Force-sensitive or that he was in fact a Sith Lord while sitting in his very presence; the last bit about him being a fine Jedi was a reference to his diplomatic and political skills, I think. Dmoon1 14:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Characteristics section coming along, although I think a little more could be said about his lightsaber skills (he defeats three Jedi and Yoda in Ep. 3 after all) and his Force abilities (he manages to hide his plot from the entire galaxy). Also, no information about his deceptive relationships with his pupils. Maybe a mention of his racism towards non-human species as well?

His force abilities (including lightsaber skills) probably could be split into a separate paragraph. His racism is mentioned and a quote by Count Dooku concerning Sidious's views is there too. Dmoon1 14:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I elaborated somewhat on his lightsaber skills. Dmoon1 22:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I would get rid of the opening sentences in "Concept and creation" as the information is basically repeated down below. This statement, "Lucas's original conception of Palpatine was of a cunning but weak politician elevated into office and controlled by bureaucrats" needs a reference I think. Also, this sentence about Ian McDiarmid, "He became the artistic director of the Almeida Theatre in North London in 1990", is kinda unnecessary. Otherwise, that section is terrific.

Well, this is supposed to be somewhat repetitive since it is a intro/summary to the "Concept and creation" section. The same thing is done above in "Appearances". The bit about artistic director is there to show what McDiarmid was doing between Return of the Jedi and The Phantom Menace since there is this sixteen-year gap between the two films. Dmoon1 14:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

While the whole article is comprehensive and successfuly avoids any cruft, I think it still needs a spelling and grammar run-through, as I saw a few too many typos and errors than normal. The only extra suggestion I can offer is maybe adding an image comparing Palpatine to Satan or such. Great work.--Dark Kubrick 03:25, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I've run the text through a spell checker and there are no common spelling errors (there may still be a couple remaining); I can't speak for the grammar since I hate to proofread. I will print out a paper copy and go over it over the next day or so. Not sure what to do about an image comparing Palpatine to Satan. I haven't run across anything directly showing Palpatine as the devil, just that some academics have compared him to the figure. Dmoon1 14:29, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll see if I can address all of these soon. Dmoon1 03:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment I just read through the article and made some minor copy edits here and there. I've also hidden some requests for source citation where it appeared a direct quote was being given. Other than that, here are a few concerns:

The quotes come from directly from the film which is being described. Dmoon1 18:01, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• A few terms are used that may be unfamiliar to non-fans. Sith, Expanded Universe, and Emperor's Hand. Some of this can be remedied by adding a couple of words of explanation. For example, perhaps in the intro: 'In reality, Palpatine is a powerful lord of the evil Sith sect . . . " or something.
  • Did the best I could with this one. Dmoon1 17:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• The article asserts that Palpatine is 'a symbol of evil and sinister deception in American popular culture." This is true, but is it only in America? Does the character not have the same associations in other countries and cultures where Star Wars is popular? I'd think that at least Canadian culture would have this association, but maybe not?
  • All the examples I found were American (this statement is almost exactly like the one in Jabba the Hutt). Dmoon1 17:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• Throughout the "Appearances" section, consider changing a few more sentences to describe what authors and directors are doing. For example, instead of "in the 1999 prequel film Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace, Palpatine is introduced . . . " to "in the 1999 . . . Lucas introduces Palpatine . . . ."
  • Changed a couple of these. Dmoon1 17:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• The article is way overlong, and I think the "Appearances" section is to blame. I think it goes into way too much detail about Palpatine's role in relatively minor and secondary books and cartoons. I honestly think you shouldn't be devoting more than a sentence or two to anything but the actual feature films. Maybe Dark Empire or some of the stuff where Palpatine is indeed a central chracter. But he's almost not even in the Clone Wars microseries, yet that cartoon gets its own section! In short, I would take a long, hard look at the "Appearances" section and think about scaling it back by half or more.
  • I edited down the literature section, but I must disagree about the cartoons and novels. I'm not sure what you mean by secondary (to the films?), but they are important. Palpatine/Darth Sidious is influencing the entire plot of the cartoon (but I only chose a few of the more notable examples). The cartoon is not like some of the obscure video game references that have tried to pop up in some of the articles recently. It is critically acclaimed and has won several major awards. Additionally, almost all of the Star Wars novels have appeared on the New York Times Bestseller list. But you are right concerning the bulk of these sections, and it has been trimmed considerably look more like the literature section of Jabba the Hutt. Dmoon1 17:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
  • I think most of the KB length is being generated by the footnotes. It's probably around 35 KB, not 55. Dmoon1 17:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• I removed some asides about other characters that do not have any direct pertinence to Palpatine (Vader's struggle between good and evil, Mara Jade's future nuptial).
  • This was on my to-do list. Dmoon1 17:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• Some of the quotes from interviews are given in the present tense ("Lucas says"), while others are in the past tense ("McDiarmid remembered"). I think either is acceptable, but try to make it consistent one way or the other.
  • Taken care of as many of these as I could spot. There may be some I missed. Dmoon1 17:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• I agree that the line about McDiarmid's life between trilogies (as an artistic director) should be cut. The article's about Palpatine, not McDiarmid.
  • Removed this line. Dmoon1 17:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
• The quote from John Shelton Lawrence seems to be referring to Star Wars action figures in general, not specifically to the Emperor's. I'd cut it.
  • The quote is explicitly about Palpatine and Luke Skywalker, you can see the actual page here.

That's it. I think that if the "Appearances" section is trimmed with a hacksaw, this will be a good Featured Article Candidate. Here's to hoping you turn your attention to Chewbacca next! — BrianSmithson 09:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

• • Thanks! I definitely appreciate your feedback and will address as many of your concerns as possible. Dmoon1 17:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)