Wikipedia:Peer review/Joe Diffie/archive1

Joe Diffie

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I want to see if I can get it to GA. This was my first shot at GA back in 2007 and it was a miserable failure; since then, I've gotten much better at article writing. I've taken a couple other country music BLPs to GA (Clay Walker, Shenandoah, The Kentucky Headhunters and McBride & the Ride), and would like to add another one to that list.

Thanks, Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 22:44, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, I'll have a go. I generally use a standard procedure:

• Coverage, in other words what to include / exclude per the GA criteria.
• Structure. To group aspects of the article to other and often to order that so that (sub-)sections that provide information precede those that use that information.
• (Sub-)sections, looking at e.g. prose and citations.
• Check for broken links and DAB pages - see User:Philcha#Tools.
• Check the lead last, when no further changes are expected in than main text.

A GA reviewer will expect that you will do all this before the reviewer, as a review is quality control, not an article improvement service. I suggest you check the previous GA review at Talk:Joe Diffie to see if any of it is useful. --Philcha (talk) 11:18, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm not infallible, so tell me if you disagree of any of my comments.

Coverage (from Philcha)

• At first I thought there were gaps (see GA criteria). In fact the article covered what I expected but it was difficult to see it because the structure was unclear. --Philcha (talk) 22:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
• I haven't studied WP:BLP and will generally I'll take your opinion on this. --Philcha (talk) 22:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

Structure (from Philcha)

This threw the first time round. After some head-scratching I thought:

• Section "Biography" should be re-titled e.g. "Early life". This should: include his first marriage and divorce, and his bankruptcy and depression, all of which occured before any of Diffie's professional music career, and his 2nd marriage, which started before any of Diffie's professional music career but ended half way through it. Biographies are often difficult, and each person's is different. --Philcha (talk) 22:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
• professional music career in sections "1990–1992: A Thousand Winding Roads and Regular Joe", "1993: Honky Tonk Attitude", "1994–1996: Third Rock from the Sun, Mr. Christmas and Life's So Funny", "1996–1998: Twice Upon a Time and Greatest Hits", "1999–2000: A Night to Remember", "2001–2004: In Another World and Tougher Than Nails" and "2004–present". --Philcha (talk) 22:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
• You should retitle "2004–present" to "2004 to 2010", as "2004–present" will be false as soon as 2011 opens. One difficulty about living subjects is at you'll also have to check the article. --Philcha (talk) 22:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
• As you have only 1 image, in the infobox, a table with the years and most events may help readers. The tricky part will be placing the table to avoid the infobox in a widescreen monitor. --Philcha (talk) 00:58, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Once the structure is stable, we can walk through the sections - e.g. citations and prose. --Philcha (talk) 00:58, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Over to you for now. --Philcha (talk) 00:58, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

• I've taken up all the other issues, but I really don't think a timeline is necessary. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 16:34, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

For me as a simulated reader, the personal life and the musical career don't integrate - I'd have to work it for myself by comparing the years. Right now that's the largest difficulty. If I were doing a GA-review of this article, I'd failed it for not being clear. If you disagree, you could request a 2nd opinion at WT:GAN. --Philcha (talk) 07:23, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Okay, what do you think would make it flow better? Flow's always been an issue with me. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 14:41, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

In case we have a misunderstanding, what you mean by "flow"? --Philcha (talk) 15:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

"the personal life and the musical career don't integrate" — how do you suggest fixing that? Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 17:49, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Hang on, I'm the reviewer. It's your job as the editor to integrate the personal life and the musical career. --Philcha (talk) 18:57, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean exactly by integration. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 20:36, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

It looks as it the personal life and the musical career as parts of different articles. I'll request a 2nd opinion, as you and I was going round in circles. --Philcha (talk) 21:17, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

• As a second opinion, I really can't see a problem (just sticking my oar in). Ironholds (talk) 21:42, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Early life (from Philcha)

• IMO "His first musical performance came at age four, when he performed in his aunt's country music band. Diffie's father played guitar and banjo, and his mother sang; in addition, Diffie took up singing at an early age, often listening to the albums in his father's record collection" is unclear and also probably can be more concise:
  • Does "Diffie's father played guitar and banjo, and his mother sang" mean as part of Diffie's aunt's country music band? If so, how about e.g. "His first musical performance came at age four, when he performed in his aunt's country music band" could be more concise, e.g. "His first musical performance came at age four, in his aunt's country music band, in which Diffie's father played guitar and banjo and his mother sang. in addition, Diffie took up singing at an early age, often listening to the albums in his father's record collection". --Philcha (talk) 09:04, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
  • But if Diffie's father and mothers music was separate from the aunt's band, then e.g. "His first musical performance came at age four, in his aunt's country music band. In addition Diffie's father played guitar and banjo and his mother sang, and Diffie took up singing at an early age and listened to the albums in his father's record collection". --Philcha (talk) 09:04, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
• Brownie points if you can clarify "first grade" for non-US readers :-) --Philcha (talk) 09:04, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
• Please clarify "Washington" - some will think of DC and others of the home of Microsoft. --Philcha (talk) 09:04, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

• The link points to Washington state already, but I clarified the text to say "Washington state."

• What type of football? --Philcha (talk) 09:04, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

• American topics use American English, so the implication is that it's American football. I don't think a clarification is needed here.

• In "After graduating, he attended Cameron University in Lawton, Oklahoma":
  • The cited Joe Diffie - Biography says nothing about this. --Philcha (talk) 10:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
  • IMO use of "graduating" for end of high school is USA usage. In other countries it means getting a first degree at university, and the next level is "post-graduate". --Philcha (talk) 10:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

• Again, articles on American topics use American English rules. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 01:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

• In "After the foundry closed, he declared bankruptcy, sold the studio out of financial necessity, and was divorced from his wife, who left with their two children":
  • I suggest e.g. ""After the foundry closed, he declared bankruptcy and had to sell the studio". --Philcha (talk) 10:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Is there a causal connection between the bankruptcy and Diffie's first divorced. --Philcha (talk) 10:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
• In "Shortly afterward, Diffie entered a state of depression before moving to Nashville", is there a causal connection between the depression and moving to Nashville". --Philcha (talk) 10:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
• If no causal connection between the depression and moving, I'd combine "... moving to Nashville. There, he took a job at Gibson Guitars" --Philcha (talk) 10:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
• I've found a conflict between sources: Joe Diffie - Biography says Diffie was born in Duncan, while Opry Member: Joe Diffie says Tulsa. If you can't find additional citation(s) to resolve the conflict, you have to tell the readers there is an unresolved conflict - otherwise you're breaking WP:NPOV. --Philcha (talk) 10:50, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
• The article lists songs Diffie wrote, but does not describe their influence on Diffie's start of a professional career. Joe Diffie - Biography says "caught a break when his Love on the Rocks was recorded by Hank Thompson" and "There Goes My Heart Again proved a major hit, and Diffie found himself a hot commodity. He signed with Epic and released his debut album, A Thousand Winding Roads, in 1990". --Philcha (talk) 00:23, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
• The last sentence, "Diffie finally signed with Epic in 1990", needs a citation. --Philcha (talk) 00:48, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

• Fixed.

• IMO the prose defects are already enough to fail in a GA review. I've seen types of problem, making causal connections between events and making the prose clear and concise. After seen GA reviewers of other articles, I've concluded that the remedy is practise. I suggest you try as many as possible to re-write a passage of about 10 sentences to seen which works best. As you should not change the article - other editors might want to work on it - I suggest you create a sub-page of your own page and store there each re-write, so you can compare them. I'm a big fan of sub-pages, my are like a construction yard, so I have an index sub-page plus sub-subpages for the real work. :-) --Philcha (talk) 00:48, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

•  Doing... Working on some of the issues right now. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 01:23, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Professional music career (from Philcha)

• Joe Diffie - Biography says "If You Want Me To" and "New Way (To Light Up an Old Flame)" reached number two but not which chart. --Philcha (talk) 03:09, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

• Swapped out for the Joel Whitburn ref, which indicates a peak of #2 on Billboard. Ten Pound Hammer, his otters and a clue-bat • ^{(Many otters • One bat • One hammer)} 01:26, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

1992: Regular Joe (from Philcha)

• Joe Diffie Biography supports "a duet with Mary-Chapin Carpenter was nominated for a Grammy for Best Vocal Collaboration" but not the name of the album.--Philcha (talk) 05:19, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

General comments (from Philcha)

• (comment only) Your few inaccuracies in sticking to the citations are the kind that come from knowing the content for years - I find the same problem :-) I make that mistake less often when I work on something new. --Philcha (talk) 05:19, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
• When you think you've finished work on the main text, use these User:Philcha#Tools to check for dead links and DAB pages. You should also use these just before you nominated the article for GA review. --Philcha (talk) 06:41, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
• I like to do the lead last, when the main text settled, to minimise the risk the that the lead contains something that's not in the main text. --Philcha (talk) 06:41, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

IMO this PR has found enough ways to improve the article, and I hope you find it helpful. Please tell me if there's anything you want to discuss. Either way, good luck! --Philcha (talk) 06:41, 31 July 2010 (UTC)