Wikipedia:Peer review/Ian Thorpe/archive1

Ian Thorpe

I am hoping to get this to FA by the end of the month. I am fully aware of the fact that I need to copyedit the article properly, find more diverse references to supplement the biography (or to substitute them) and also that some cites are missing - but I know that I can get access to those references - I just haven't done so because I need to be off, so I am starting the review so others can see it over the weekend. Apart from that, please fire away. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 08:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please see automated peer review suggestions here. Thanks, AZ _t 14:43, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

My original thoughts: It's a nice article.

My corrections:

...(born October 13, 1982), also known as the Thorpedo or Thorpey, is an Australian freestyle swimmer who is regarded one of the greatest middle-distance swimmers of all time.

Citation/Verification on "one of the greatest middle-distance swimmers.."

I believe it is The Thorpedo, not just Thorpedo. I'm nearly sure.

Your placing of inline citations is incorrect and variable.

Eg. "...individual long course world records [6]." "....championships at the 2001 World Championships in Fukuoka[3], and has..."

Say Fukuoka, Japan. It's not like Tokyo, where everyone has heard of it.

They [the in-line citations] must go after the period with no space in between. A space must be after the reference and before the start of the next sentence. They also must go after commas.

Fact check here: "At 1.95 m (6 ft 5 in) and 105 kg (231 lb), he is very large for a swimmer and many thought that as he matured and continued to grow he would be unable to maintain his performance as a teenager."

You go way to much in detail about his parents' respective cricket careers and his sister. Reduce these to at maximum 2-3 sentences.

Fact check here: "Thorpe was initially sidelined as a young child due to chlorine allergy, and..."

Better section titles needed. Eg. "International debut" follows "National debut".

Don't link your section titles.

"Youngest ever World Champion", bad title-ing. Try "World Champion". Some may consider both inappropriate per WP:PEACOCK.

After an initial flood of citations (which is excellent), your article loses its authority half way through. Flesh it out citation-wise.

The article could, in general, use a bit of a condensing. Especially the latter sections.

You only have 1 print source. Find and applicate more. That's easy now with Google Books.

Sorry if I gave you alot of work. Good job so far. Evan^{(Salad dressing is the milk of the infidel!)} 20:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Some queries:

Thorpedo is what I have always heard. The drink of the same name is not "The Thorpedo" AFAIK.

Where is the "citation after comma" requirement? I always thought it was a style issue that was not set in concrete, as long as it was consistent through the article.

Is it really an issue that there are 6 sentences about family sporting backgrounds? That seems like a non-issue to me.

Would it be expected that there are multiple worthy print sources for Thorpe (excluding newspapers and magazines I assume)?

Ansell 08:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Yes, your right, it's not set in stone. But most picky editors will even hold you back from FA on this- cough- it happened to me -cough. Also, when you said that "as long as it was consistent," it clearly was not. Just coming back to check on the article. Good job so far. Evan^{(Salad dressing is the milk of the infidel!)} 22:20, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, exceptional. The detail is far beyond what I would have expected (people will see this as both good and bad, depends on who you get when it hits FA). I've suffered problems in my own FA's regarding a lack of sources, but if there are any more you can add to cross-reference, that would certainly improve it. Thorpe's image will require a detailed fair-use rationale to please the photonazis. michael ^talk 07:14, 13 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There are issues with the tone and words in the text, which strongly comes off as fancruft. Rama's arrow 01:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is that because of the detail given to his lastd-gasp-dash style of racing? His late-bursts always cause a massive overreaction amongst the public - is this the part that is bordering on fairy-tale. Is it the excessive detail that borders on a fan page? Which parts are over-represented. Unfortunately he has won a lot, and rarely lost, so that makes things difficult. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:10, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No its just the overall language, based on Evan's points and my reading. For example, the book(s) you use as references, the author's tone affects your writing (same thing happened to me). To escape the clutches of Tony or Spangineer, we'll have to do a line-by-line copyedit, which is not hard. Please fix the request for sources also. Rama's arrow 02:44, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

A day's copyediting should do the trick. The article is very comprehensive and well-written. The following need fixing:

"metre" --> "m" Only the first metre reference should be Wikilinked. The rest should consistently be "m" Also, when you refer to metres on notable victories (world titles, Olympics) you need to give also the equivalent in feet (some people are likely to ask for that).
Remove redlinks by stubbing.
Sentences like With Klim recently returning from a two year injury layoff, and Callus ill, Australia had no realistic chance of defending the 4x100 m freestyle relay. - that Australia had no realistic chance is a POV. You should make that clear by precluding it with "many felt that..." There are many such instances throughout the article.
Dates: wikilink when the day and day-year combinations are given. Don't wikilink years.
Citations: not a major issue, but it would good to shift all notes to {{cite}}
Question: was there a particular reason why Thorpe took 17 months hiatus? What did he do in this time?

Its a very good article. I feel the balance between matter-of-fact language and graphic details makes very interesting reading, but it needs clean-up over WP:NPOV, tone and fancruft. Rama's arrow 03:07, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Is there anything wrong with the "Out of the Water" header - the section also describes his charity work, commercial enterprises, ambassador stuff, so that is not exactly "private life" Blnguyen (bananabucket) 03:14, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hehehehe... "Out of Water" is unencyclopedic. Its a bit dramatic and questionable - technically, it would cover all time he is out of a swimming pool or bathtub. "Personal life" is good because it gives you a lot of scope to discuss private issues and non-professional activities. Rama's arrow 03:26, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also, its a bit difficult but I suggest you compress the descriptions of races as per significance to Thorpe. Its good to describe for his first major victory that established him, his first world title or Olympic, dat sorta thing. Describe 2-3 of his most famous, personally significant wins and summarize the others (matter-of-fact tone/language). Rama's arrow 03:33, 14 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, my two cents:

Would a sub-article (possibly "swimming career of Ian Thorpe") be useful? That way, the information in the main article would be more condensed but "swimming career" could be more expanded.
Getting articles finished by a deadline is a challenge.
The references bit looks a bit ugly. If Thorpe's biography has < 20 chapters, rather than having 30 different "The Biography page XX-YY", how about having "The Biography chapter ZZ"? That way, you could have a couple of citations to the same chapter. If available, I tend to also include ISBNs. Andjam 12:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Retirement

>>>>this is the proposed insertion:

""" On the eve of what was the biggest decision of his life, Ian Thorpe failed to comply with a drug test that was planned weeks ago and was part of a pre-championship testing blitz of Australia's top swimmers. No action was taken from the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority to that matter, as Ian Thorpe effectively deregistered himself from the ASADA register, by retiring the next day. Regardless of the reasons for his decision not to comply with ASADA regulations, it was an unprofessional last act from a top athlete and a bad example from someone of his caliber """

>>> and these are my sources:

""" http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/drug-testers-visit-thorpe/2006/11/20/1163871311869.html

http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/thorpe-wrestles-with-that-sinking-feeling/2006/11/20/1163871343255.html

http://www.asada.gov.au/control/procedures/responsibilities.htm

http://www.asada.gov.au/control/procedures/dopingcontrol.htm

"""

Blnguyen erased my comments as "unsourced defamatory stuff" about the fact that Ian avoided a drug test 1 day before he retire. Also, I should have place my comments here first, before go and edit the main page (sorry, noob).

So here is my source: http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/drug-testers-visit-thorpe/2006/11/20/1163871311869.html I did not say that he did took drugs, i said that it was reported that he was supposed to be tested the previous day, which is strange.. I will not post anything more until you agree to it. However, I see no reason why not...

This is Wiki after all, it is not Ian Thorpe's personal web site!! Good and bad should be allowed, or at least that is what I think...

Another article: ”Thorpe had been supposed to train at Caringbah pool yesterday morning, but when drug testers from the Australian Sports Anti-Doping Authority turned up to take a routine out-of-competition sample, he wasn't there. The drug testing was planned weeks ago and was part of a pre-championship testing blitz of Australia's top swimmers, a standard practice. Another of Thorpe's managers, Mark Jones, said of the testing: "It didn't faze Ian, he is used to doing it, it is all part of being a swimmer." The authority's chairman, Richard Ings, said that until an athlete officially notified it in writing about retirement it was "business as usual" http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/thorpe-wrestles-with-that-sinking-feeling/2006/11/20/1163871343255.html

We wont write that he was on drugs. Just the facts that the day before he retired, he evaded to be tested for drugs. That is a proven fact and if one thinks it is a coincidence, fine, but let the critical thinkers have the info the need...

ASADA, states that:"sanctions may be applied by the relevant sporting federation(s) if an athlete does not comply with a request to provide a sample or otherwise interferes with the doping control process." http://www.asada.gov.au/control/procedures/responsibilities.htm If Ian had not retire, they would have imposed sanctions because of his actions. This justifies at least a mention in Wiki, especially when there is in such an extend mention of his anti-drugs campaign.. I mean, this is how much he did care for anti-doping; he finished his career with an act of disrespect for the ASADA.Karacult 02:53, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Drug tests are not pre-scheduled - the testers will have put the test in their diaries, but they don't tell the athlete beforehand because it is a surprise test. Everybody knows Thorpe was skipping many swimming sessions in the lead up to his retiurement. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:58, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Look again Blnguyen.. http://www.asada.gov.au/control/procedures/dopingcontrol.htm

the test could be: No Advance Notice testing or targeted testing. Even if it was a no advance notice testing, "For No Advance Notice and in-competition testing, the athlete is required to report to the Doping Control Station as soon as practical or within 60 minutes of notification, whichever is sooner." Ian was at his house that day:

http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/thorpe-wrestles-with-that-sinking-feeling/2006/11/20/1163871343255.html

He failed to take the test, it was his responsibility as an athlet to be there in 1 hour. He was in australia and in sydney. The officials wait for 1 hour and he did not come (from his bedroom that he was hiding). You must be blind not to see the truth.

Regardless, the fact remains, he failed to be present at the test and that was his responsibility, so there is merit for this info to be placed in wiki.

Farthermore, this whole article about Ian is very very suspisiously like a press release from Ian's media office. He is presented as God like, with no mentions of any other side of Ian but the one that Tourism Austrlia has for the tourist. If one wants to praise him, one can go at Ian's own website. Wiki should be open and democratic and have all sides of the coin available. I appeared in front of you with lots of refs about the fact that he failed to get drug tested one day before he quited. Now lets let the readers to make their own opinion about it and this will only happen if we don't censure the information I brought here..Karacult 05:45, 12 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]