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Herbert Chapman

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A biography of one of the most influential association football managers of all time, mostly written by myself. I'd like to hear thoughts and suggestions from the wider community with a view to working towards FA status. Opinions particularly welcome from anyone with knowledge of Northampton/Huddersfield Town/Leeds City but of course I'd like also to hear non-football fans' opinions too.

Thanks, Qwghlm (talk) 17:22, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from ChrisTheDude (talk · contribs) edit

In a bit of a rush at the mo, but here's a few points on the lead:

  • The image uses a deprecated tag. It needs to be replaced and, unless we have specific information as to who the photographer was, I think {{PD-UK}} should be OK.
  • "His record was generally unremarkable as a player, making fewer than 40 League appearances over the course of a decade and he did not win any major honours" - a bit mangled grammatically and could probably be split into two sentences.
  • Personally I'd use "First World War" rather than "World War I" but that might just be me :-)
  • "In 1925 Chapman was tempted to move to London club Arsenal" - that reads a bit like he only ever got as far as being tempted to move, rather than actually moving, if that makes sense - needs rewording

Will have a more in-depth look later......... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:17, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • "meaning where he played" -> "meaning that where he played"
  • "He then played for Ashton-under-Lyne and played as an amateur for Ashton North End" - I'd remove the second "played"
  • "In 1898 he joined his brother Tom at Second Division Grimsby Town, still an amateur at this stage; Chapman took up a job at local solicitors to earn his way" - personally I'd start a new sentence at "still......" and change the semi-colon to a comma
  • "Chapman finished as United's top scorer but was injured at the end of this season, and still unable to find a job;[12] disheartened, he returned to his hometown and turned out for Worksop Town of the Midland League in 1900–01, while resuming his studies, this time at Old Firth College in Sheffield.[12]" - very long sentence, suggest a break after "job"
  • "Additionally, they proved their mettle in the cup" - presumably the FA Cup, but could do with being clarified
  • "After his ban, Chapman moved to Selby" - wording makes it sound like the ban had already been lifted, suggest re-wording
  • "the following month,." - stray full stop at the end
  • "who became captain under Chapman)." - and again!

I'll pop back after I've eaten my lunch :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • "In midfield, Chapman's tactics of fast-moving play meant the wing half line of John and Jones, now pushed in to cover central midfield, pivoting around the halfway line so that they could drop back to defend when necessary" - is the comma after Jones meant to be there? If so, the sentence doesn't make grammatical sense
  • "missing out on both finishing second" - needs a comma after "both"
  • "encouraged them to socialised" - stray letter d on the last word
  • "the same kit design survives to this day" - might be worth re-wording slightly given that Arsenal have just unveiled a new kit for the coming season on which the sleeves are not predominantly white

Other than that it all looks excellent, a fitting tribute to an incredibly influential man! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 12:44, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for such a detailed copyedit! With the exception of the WWI suggestion I think I have implemented all of these suggestions and corrections. Qwghlm (talk) 14:43, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Oldelpaso edit

In my opinion this is extremely close to FA standard. A couple of minor comments, with more to follow later when my body clock has recovered from shift work:

  • The Rochdale Chapman played for is not the present-day Rochdale AFC, who formed in 1907, but an unconnected previous club. There's a couple of pages about the club in Manchester – A Football History, I'll create a stub at some point. Incidentally, Chapman gets a passing mention as "one of Rochdale's star players".
  • Sheffield Wednesday were named "The Wednesday" in the early 1900s. Oldelpaso (talk) 17:31, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Changed the appropriate mentions to "The Wednesday". I presume the Rochdale club of Chapman's time was Rochdale Athletic F.C., judging from this source [1] and the supporting evidence here: [2] [3] - please correct me if I'm wrong. Qwghlm (talk) 23:26, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That third link refers to rugby, doesn't it........? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:55, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah you're right. Still I think I'm right - the main biography of Chapman I have just refers to the team as "Rochdale" though. I'll ask Richard Rundle (talk · contribs) for his opinion? Qwghlm (talk) 10:54, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A couple more minor points:

  • In midfield, Chapman's tactics of fast-moving play meant the wing half line of John and Jones were now pushed in to cover central midfield - could perhaps be rephrased to avoid repetition of "midfield".
  • Did Nothampton apply to join the league at any point during Chapman's reign?
  • Not related to this article, but Chapman's involvement with England is interesting, and could be mentioned in England national football team manager. One thing I'm curious about: did Chapman have any involvement with the Arsenal-led England team of the Battle of Highbury?
  • There are a couple of uses of "additionally" which are possibly extraneous.
  • I'll attempt to clear up the Rochdale issue when I next have my books to hand, probably tomorrow. Oldelpaso (talk) 09:28, 12 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fixed the repetition of "midfield" and "additionally". I cant find any definite details that Northampton applied to join the League althought it is inferred, so I'll leave the article as it is until I can find a direct claim. Chapman alas didn't manage the team for the Battle of Highbury as he'd passed away ten months before. Thanks for help on the Rochdale issue. Qwghlm (talk)
It appears that the Rochdale issue isn't necessarily clear-cut. {{cite book |last=James |first=Gary |title=Manchester – A Football History |publisher=James Ward |location=Halifax |date=2008 |id=ISBN 978-0-9558127-0-5|pages 167}} states "[In 1896] the first proper town club became established by members of the Rochdale Athletic Club and the Rochdale Athletic Ground Company", but consistently refers to the club as simply "Rochdale" with no indication that the suffix "Athletic" was used. It also states unequivocally that the club folded on 1 January 1901, and makes it obvious that Rochdale Town and Rochdale AFC were unconnected clubs. Matters are further complicated by rugby - a precursor of Rochdale Hornets, also formed from members of Rochdale Athletic Club, was known as Rochdale Football Club from 1867–71.
All of which is a lot of messing around considering its only the target of a single link. It might be best to use "Rochdale" delinked if we can't be sure. I'm not going to give up on this though, I'll let you know if I find a definite answer. Either way, I don't think the "not to be confused with" clause is necessary. Oldelpaso (talk) 14:23, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Should I perhaps rename the link Rochdale A.F.C. (1896) then? I still think it should be wikilinked in some way, and some clarification that it was not the current club that was founded in 1907. Qwghlm (talk) 10:43, 15 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Peanut4 (talk · contribs)
  • If it was to go to FAC, I'd suggest that the first paragraph as one line, wouldn't be appreciated. I'd suggest a tinkering of the lead.
  • First World War is favoured over World War I in British English.
  • "In 1898, he joined his brother Tom at Second Division Grimsby Town." I'd suggest this should say Football League Second Division, simply for clarity because the previous sentence refers to the Lancashire League. Ah, perhaps scrub that - I've just read the next line.
  • "Grimsby started the season poorly, near the bottom by halfway through" I feel this could be re-worded for extra clarity.
  • Numbers and their unit should be split by a non-breaking space, e.g. 14 goals.
  • Why did he decide to give up Tottenham and professional football?
  • There's a free use image of Leeds City with Chapman as manager on the Leeds City F.C. page.
  • "In Chapman's first full season in charge (1921–22), Huddersfield Town won the FA Cup, beating Preston North End 1–0 in the Final at Stamford Bridge," I think Final should be final. Without the juxtaposed use of FA Cup, I'd say it wasn't a proper noun. Same with "Cup run" at the end of the next paragraph.
  • "they finished third in 1923–24[41] and then went on to win their first ever League title in 1923–24" This doesn't seem to make sense. I guess one of these seasons is incorrect?
  • I suggest explaining "under-the-counter payments".
  • Emdashes should be unspaced. I would also change the appropriate endashes to emdashes for consistency.

Hope all this helps. Peanut4 (talk) 22:25, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With the exception of the dash and numeric phrase hints (which I will sort out soon), I have done all these suggestions. Thanks especially for the pointer about the Leeds City photo. Qwghlm (talk) 23:49, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No worries about the image. I used it myself last week for Jimmy Speirs. It's not the greatest picture in the world, but it serves a purpose and at least breaks up the text too. The lead looks good now. Nice work. Peanut4 (talk) 00:03, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done the numerics; for dashes I've used spaced endashes (as is more traditional in British English) consistently throughout which is fine according to the style guide at WP:DASH. Qwghlm (talk) 11:11, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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