Wikipedia:Peer review/Georges Bizet/archive1

Georges Bizet

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One of the "might-have-beens" of Western theatrical music, Bizet struggled for success and recognition throughout his professional life. He found it with Carmen, but then died at 36, unaware that this final work, received indifferently at first, would become a worldwide and lasting triumph. A brilliant Conservatoire student, and a Prix de Rome laureate, he could not conquer the conservatism of French music during the Second Empire period, which stifled many a promising career. Had Bizet not written Carmen he might, like his friend Ernest Guiraud, be almost forgotten by now. Any biographical article on Bizet has to draw considerably on the work of Minna Curtiss and Winton Dean, though I have tried to spread the use of reliable sources as far as I can. All comments, criticisms, corrections etc gratefully received. Brianboulton (talk) 16:27, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Comments - Brian, being very busy in real life, I only had the time today to speed-read your article. I found a few typos, but I was very impressed with the clarity of the discourse and the standard of the prose. Clearly, this article will be promoted to FA in good time. It's a damn good encyclopaedic synopsis of a composer that everyone has heard about but only a few know about (well, at least in my case). I am never sure about the correct usage of "though" and "although". I see that you have used "though" in your nomination and in the article. Since this is a PR and not and FA review, I feel that I can raise this trivial concern. Is this just a stylistic decision? I hope to add more . Graham Colm (talk) 20:44, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Graham. My dictionary gives exactly the same meaning ("despite the fact that") to both "though" and "although", so I think they can be used interchangeably. But I will check the matter out with Mr Riley (see below). Brianboulton (talk) 22:44, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Comments from Tim riley – I'll need to do this in stages. First few comments:

• Lead
  • "Relatively short career" – relative to what? Perhaps, instead "a career of X years"?
    • I've reworded differently: see what you think. Brianboulton (talk) 15:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
      • Fine now. Tim riley (talk) 11:21, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
  • "a significant loss" – what did it signify? (Pedants R Us Pedants R We)
    • The word "significant" has other meanings besides "signifying something". It can mean, for example, notable or important, as in: "Tim riley has made a significant contribution to Wikipedia's music articles". So I think it will do. With your pedant's hat on, could you look at and comment on Graham's point, above? Brianboulton (talk) 15:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
      • Hmmm. Tim riley (talk) 11:21, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
• Conservatoire
  • "produce works of increasing sophistication and quality" – a citation for this statement would be good
    • This was actually covered in the previous cite (Dean, pp. 7–8) so I have moved the citatiion
  • "note for note in some passages" – ditto
    • Covered by the Curtiss cittion at the end of the para.
  • "Bizet's prize cantata" – do we know title or subject? It would be interesting, and wouldn't take much space.
    • It is named at the beginning of this paragraph (Clovis et Clothilde).
      • Mea culpa! Tim riley (talk) 11:21, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
• Rome
  • "and which Bizet" – "and which he"? One less noun.
  • "Under its elderly director" – is Schnetz's antiquity really material here? (Parti-pris, moi?)
• Paris
  • "State-subsidised" – capital letter wanted?
  • "L'Opéra and the Opéra-Comique" – French definite article for one and English for the other?
    • Damn. I will convert to English (as this is English wikipedia)
  • "Théâtre Italien specialised in second-rate Italian opera" – citation, if only to defend yourself from a lynch mob of canary fanciers
    • It's covered by the next citation (Steen)
  • "write a three-act opera… from a libretto…" – "to" rather than "from"?
    • What do you think of "using a..."? Brianboulton (talk) 15:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
      • Fine. Tim riley (talk) 11:21, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

More to come. Tim riley (talk) 19:31, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you Tim. No comment means I've used your suggestion. I look forward to your further comments. Brianboulton (talk) 15:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Second and final batch.

• Marriage
  • "Ludovic wrote in his journal" – a while since the previous and thus far only mention of Ludovic. I wonder if calling him by both his names might be clearer for readers.
  • "and had completed it" – unclear why the pluperfect here.
  • "mother-in-law with whom he maintained" – comma needed before "with" (otherwise the ghastly prospect arises of several mothers-in-law of whom this is just one).
• Late career
  • "a piano duet, Jeux d'enfants" – this would be one and the same, presumably, but it could be read either way.
  • "hoping that Fauré's approval might influence the directors of the Opéra" – not sure (speaking as Fauré's Vicar on Wikipedia) what influence Fauré was in a position to exert in 1872. As secretary of the Société Nationale de Musique?
    • The source says that Bizet hoped Fauré's "influence would thaw the frozen portals of the Opéra". I agree that it is odd that Fauré, then 27 years old, was considered to have much influence, but I am following the sources. Perhaps he had friends in high places? Brianboulton (talk) 22:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
      • Not a bit of it! Fauré himself struggled and was an outsider until middle age. But Bizet and others had joined him the previous year in founding the Société Nationale, and I can only assume that it was to that that Bizet was pinning his hopes. Anyway, as you say, one must go by the sources. Tim riley (talk) 11:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
  • "Massenet, Saint-Saens and Gounod" – won't you give poor old Saint-Saëns his diaeresis?
    • Oh, yes, of course. ("Camille Saint-Saëns was wracked with pains/When people addressed him as 'Saint-Sanes'" - O. Nash) Brianboulton (talk) 22:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
• Dramatic works
  • "one-act Conservatoire opera Le Docteur Miracle" – in what sense a "Conservatoire opera" as it was written for Offenbach's competition?
    • Sloppy writing on my part (as in a "school essay" - one written at school, etc). Amended. Brianboulton (talk) 22:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
• Legacy
  • Far be it from me of all people to object to the sudden appearance of that imperial beard, but some captious souls may wonder why Sir Thomas's recording of the C major symphony should be singled out for mention. (It's incomparable, of course, but no other modern performer's versions of any other work are mentioned.)
    • Well, Fritz Lehmann, Stokowski and Ansermet all recorded it before Sir Tom. I singled Beecham's out because Gramophone's reviewer (T.H. if you can identify) said, a propos the others: "What this symphony wants is a recording by a first-class stylist—Beecham, of course". And then Beecham obliged. Should I amend to "...and has been recorded many times"?
      • I think I'd amend as you suggest if I were you, but you could leave it and see what people say at FAC. T.H., by the bye, was Trevor Harvey - a good musician, perceptive critic, and collector of press clangers such as "In Going to My Naked Bed (unaccompanied)" and "Art Thou Troubled with the City of Birmingham Symphony Orchestra". Tim riley (talk) 11:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

That's my lot. On the question of though/although above, Fowler's original disquisition made my eyes glaze over, but Burchfield's modern revision is clear enough: wherever "although" can be used, so, equally properly, can "though".

As discussed elsewhere I shall be gratefully cribbing from your footnote 1 here for the Offenbach article when getting it shipshape for FAC in due course.

This is another top-notch article. I enjoyed it immensely, learned a lot from it, and look forward to seeing it at FAC. – Tim riley (talk) 11:21, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks again. I will look forward to the finally polished Offenbach. Brianboulton (talk) 22:48, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Finetooth comments: Another excellent article, well-illustrated. Just a dabbler in music, really, I never tire of Carmen or of "Au fond du temple saint", and I enjoyed learning more about Bizet.

Lead

• It might be useful to add the phonetic pronunciation of Bizet to the opening sentence.
  • I suppose you're right, though I find these phonetics play havoc with the first lines of articles and might well put readers off. Do you know how to transcribe "zhorzh beezay" into phonetic script. Brianboulton (talk) 16:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Alas, no. I was hoping you did. I suppose it's among those many things I should learn. Finetooth (talk) 17:06, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

• "frequently-performed works: - Delete hyphen?

Family background and childhood

• "His father, Adolphe Bizet, had followed the trade of a hairdresser and wigmaker" - Tighten by changing "had followed the trade of" to "had been".

• "who in the course of his career performed" - Tighten to "who performed"?

• "at the age of thirteen" - Perhaps 13 for internal consistency and then 10 in "before he reached the minimum entry age of ten" a few lines later and 10th early in the next subsection in "two weeks before his tenth birthday"?

Conservatoire

• "After this rebuff Bizet entered an opera competition for young composers organised by Jacques Offenbach, with a prize of 1,200 francs on offer." - This might be read to mean that Offenbach organized the composers. Would something like this be more clear: "After this rebuff Bizet entered an opera competition for young composers. Organised by Jacques Offenbach, it offered a prize of 1,200 francs"?
  • I've reworded slightly differently. See what you think. Brianboulton (talk) 16:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

That works. I'd prefer "that" rather than "which", but this might be just a matter of style. Finetooth (talk) 17:15, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Rome, 1858–60

• "a 16th century palace that since 1803" - Hyphenate "16th-century"?

• "As a condition of the offer was that the opera should be the composer's first publicly staged work, Bizet hurriedly withdrew La guzla from production and incorporated parts of its music into the new opera." - I stumbled here, attempted a fix, and then changed my mind. Maybe "Since a condition of the offer was that the opera should be the composer's first publicly staged work, Bizet... ".
  • Perhaps "Because..." is a better intro than either "As..." or "Since..."?

Agreed. Finetooth (talk) 17:26, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Years of struggle

• "so in December 1865 Bizet offered it to L'Opera, who rejected it" - "Which" rather than "who"?

• "remained unperformed until 1946.[48][44]" - Reverse the order to [44][48].

• Was it was simply coincidence that Les pêcheurs de perles and La jolie fille de Perth each ran for only 18 performances?
  • I believe it was. No other explanation is offered by biographers. Brianboulton (talk) 16:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

OK. Not knowing anything about it, I wondered if performances were typically scheduled in discrete blocks (six threes or two nines), which might explain the identical numbers. Finetooth (talk) 17:26, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

War and upheaval

• "an outbreak of patriotic fervour and confident expectations of victory.[66][7]" - [7][66]

• "with excerpts from works by Gluck, Rossini and Meyerbeer.[71][68] - [68][71]

Illness and death

• In Note 8, would it be better to describe Gelma as a physician or something else rather than using the ambiguous "Dr"?

Orchestral, piano and vocal works

• Owing something to Gounod, and with passages that recall Weber and Mendelssohn the work, says Dean, suffers from poor organisation and an excess of pretentious music; it is a "misfire". - Comma after "Mendelssohn"?

References

• Citation 44, pp.
  • I can't identify the problem. Perhaps someone has fixed this? Brianboulton (talk) 16:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Looks like User:One Ton Depot fixed it. Finetooth (talk) 17:31, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Bibliography

• Is it useful to add OCLCs for books without ISBNs? WorldCat returns OCLC 505162968 for Bizet and his world and most likely can identify the others by number.
  • I'll work on this

That's it. I don't imagine this will have much trouble at FAC. Finetooth (talk) 20:04, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for a most helpful review. As per normal, no comment means I've taken your suggestion. Brianboulton (talk) 16:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Comments by Wehwalt

Lede

• "After his death his musical legacy, apart from Carmen, was generally neglected; manuscripts were given away or lost, published versions of his works were frequently revised and adapted by other hands." I think youre going to have to split this sentence somewhere, that comma should really be a semicolon and you can't have two.

Conservatoire

• "solfège" Can some pipe be made to allow the reader unfamiliar with this term to not be totally at sea?
  • The term is wikilinked in the previous (Early life) section. Linking it again so soon might be thought excessive, perhaps? Brianboulton (talk) 17:03, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
• "but nor were any of the others" neither?
  • Not sure. In this context the words mean the same, surely. Brianboulton (talk) 17:03, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
• "with a prize of 1,200 francs on offer" Suggest that "on offer" adds no meaning.
• "fellow-prizeman Perhaps "fellow laureate"?

Emergent composer

• "at that time" omit, what other time would you be talking about?  :)
• "State-subsidised" Almost certainly lower case.
• "was paramount at this time" even though better justified, I'd still say "was then paramount"
• "Bizet's third envoi ... " I would divide this paragraph, perhaps at the start of discussion of the Pearl Fishers.

War

• "he would no longer be safe in the city," "he was no longer safe in the city".

Late career

• " the director's unjustified closing" It's a fact that it was unjustified?
• Something might be said about Bizet's finances in the early 1870s.

• I'll have to think about this. The biographers are not very specific, but it is clear that the Bizets, though never wealthy, were reasonably comfortable - though Georges needed to earn a regular income, hence his continuing with publishers' hackwork and music lessons. There was probably some cushioning via the Halevy fortune; Mme Halevy was very well-to-do. Perhaps a line or two would be informative. Brianboulton (talk) 17:03, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Music

• "Owing something to Gounod, and with passages that recall Weber and Mendelssohn the work, says Dean, suffers from poor organisation and an excess of pretentious music; it is a "misfire".". I would rephrase to make for fewer commas, and also ensure that I cited this sentence..

• I have reworded. The citation is in place, after the following sentence which concludes Dean's assessment of Bizet's orchestral works. Brianboulton (talk) 19:18, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

• " An exception is the set of 12 pieces " I guess the exception is to the amateur, rather than to the repetoire.

• The subject of the first sentence is Bizet's piano music which is (a) rarely performed and (b) very difficult to play. An exception, i.e it is performed fairy frequently and isn't fiendishly difficult, is the set of 12 pieces etc. I think the sentence says what I want it to say. Brianboulton (talk) 19:18, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

• "Most of Bizet's songs were written in the period 1886–88." Surely a typo, given the circumstances?
• "and a laborious plot" It has a plot? Never mind.
• "opera's Far Eastern setting," Sri Lanka is Far East? Well, in a certain Kipling sense, I suppose.
• "As Bizet moved away" I suspect this sentence should be split.

Legacy

• "Officer of the Legion of Honour" Earlier you refer to Bizet as having been made a chevalier (lower case) of this award. Are these the same thing?

• They are different ranks in the Legion, Chevalier being higher than Officer (the link on Legion of Honour explains this). I have capialised "Chevalier" for consistency. Brianboulton (talk) 19:18, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

• "a famous Parisien hostess " It might be wise to mention that it she was a social hostess. If so.

That's about it. An excellent effort, looking forward to seeing it at FAC.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks for the review. I have followed your suggestions except where indicated, and will do a little reserch on Bizet's post-1870 income. Brianboulton (talk) 19:18, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

I don't see anything that urgently needs to be followed up on. The remaining points I could go either way on, so that makes it editor's judgment in my book.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:41, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I have followed up your query about the Bizets' finances and not found anything specific in the sources that I can use. They were clearly never going to go bust (the Halevy money would have prevented that) but equally clearly, Georges needed to work to maintain their lifestyle. On the other hand, he could obviously afford to make principled stands, e.g. concerning the Opéra appointment, and in his brief career as a music critic. It's pretty much speculation, though, and I think I have to leave it. Brianboulton (talk) 09:04, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Comments from Jappalang

General

• I notice a lot of "Parisien"... is it not supposed to be "Parisian"?[1]

• How was his relationship with his father? This seems to be missing, considering that his father raised his son as his half-brother (apparently because they shared a woman) and that elder Bizet attended the composer's funeral.

• There is no information in the sources that I can use to expound on this, nor do the sources say that father and son "shared a woman"; that is pure conjecture. Brianboulton (talk) 12:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Lede

• "... he died three months later, ..."

  Considering the age at which he died (and with no wars or epidemics at the moment), I think the probable cause should be stated here.

Family background and childhood

• Is there any information on how the elder Bizet and Delsarte were introduced to each other?

• Nothing specific, but François Delsarte was a singing teacher as was Adolphe, so the pair presumably moved in similar circles. Brianboulton (talk) 12:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

• The end of the first paragraph is a good place to state whether Bizet is the only child of the union or not.

Conservatoire

• "... a feat which impressed ..."

  "... a feat that impressed ..."

• "... and soon began to ..."

  "Soon" is redundant.

• I wonder about NPOV when reading Lecocq's pique; it does not seem neutral to let a primary (biased) source comment on the subject's achievement without backing from other more secondary sources or a counter from a notable primary opinion biased to the subject.

• I have amplified a little on the possible reasons behind Lecocq's pique, but this is such a minor issue in the context of Bizet's life that I have transferred the matter to a footnote. Brianboulton (talk) 12:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

• "Bizet was awarded the prize after a ballot of the members of the Académie des Beaux-Arts overturned the judges' initial decision in favour of the oboist Charles Colin."

  I think "... judges' initial decision, which was in favour of the oboist ..." is needed for clarity (I somewhat confusingly read the sentence as the initial decision was overturned to favour Colin, then the prize was awarded to Bizet).

• "... Bizet received a pension for five years, ..."

  Considering that the common definition for "pension" now refers to retirement (and that the form used here is chiefly historical),[2] perhaps another term would be better here (or define it here).

Rome, 1858–60

• "Bizet relished the convivial atmosphere; in his first six months in Rome his only composition was a Te Deum written for the Rodrigues Prize ..."

  Those two clauses fail to gel for me... he relished the happy place (implying an environment for greater productivity) but produced only one work?

• • A "convivial" atmosphere is not necessarily conducive to productivity, but I have added a little explanatory text. Brianboulton (talk) 12:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

• "A tendency to conceive ambitious projects, only to quickly abandon them, became a feature of Bizet's Rome years; ..."

  "In his years at Rome, Bizet developed/exhibited a tendency to conceive ambitious projects, only to quickly abandon them; ..."?

• • I prefer my original version, which in my view flows better. Brianboulton (talk) 12:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Paris 1860–63

• "On 13 March 1861 Bizet attended the Paris premiere of Wagner's opera Tannhauser, a performance greeted by audience riots stage-managed by the influential Jockey-Club de Paris."

  There is possible ambiguity (to a casual reader) here... did the Jockey-Club [stage-]manage the performance or the riots?

• "... Bizet revised his formerly negative opinion of Wagner ..."

  What was this "formerly negative opinion of Wagner"? The details were never mentioned earlier.

• "... only at Reiter's death in 1913 did she reveal her son's true paternity."

  Did Bizet and his father know about this? Did they even know they slept with the same woman? My... my... "housekeeper", eh?

• • As stated above, the relationship between Mlle Reiter and Adolphe Bizet is conjectural. The inference in the sources is that Adolphe, by accepting paternity of the maid's son, was protecting Georges, but there really is nothing on which to develop this aspect. Brianboulton (talk) 12:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Years of struggle

• "... offered it to the Opera, ..."

  Missing diacritic?

• "... who rejected it; it the work remained unperformed until 1946."

• "In July 1866 Bizet signed another contract with Carvalho, for La jolie fille de Perth; the libretto of which, by J.H. Vernoy de Saint-Georges after Sir Walter Scott, is described by Bizet's biographer Winton Dean as "the worst Bizet was ever called upon to set"."

• "... any of Bizet's other operas, the second act being hailed by ..."

  "... any of Bizet's other operas; the second act was hailed by ..."

• "... Bizet was one of four composers who contributed a single act to a four-act operetta Marlborough s'en va-t-en guerre."

  I read this as meaning that the four of them contributed a single act, which I presume is not the case. "... Bizet joined three other composers to write a four-act operetta Marlborough s'en va-t-en guerre; each composer contributed one act."

Marriage

• "... left-wing, anti-religious ..."

  It might be part of a quote, but can the basis for these objections be expounded on?

• "Whatever their objections, by summer 1869 they had been overcome, ..."

  Seems a bit too "flourish-y": "Their objections were overcome by summer 1869, ..."?

• "... Geneviève's uncertain mental health, ..."

  What is her condition?

• "... Bizet kept on good terms with his mother-in-law, with whom he and maintained an extensive correspondence with her."

War and upheaval

• "... within the sounds of the gunfire of the government troops that gradually crushed the uprising: ..."

  "... within hearing distance of the gunfire that resounded as govermment troops gradually crushed the uprising: ..."

Dramatic works

• Why is Caruso highlighted in the caption, but not Farrar?

Images are totally fine with me; File:Paris Opera fire 29 10 1873.jpg's CR did work in 1866,[3] so I find it conceivable for him to be very likely dead for more than 70 years. Jappalang (talk) 07:08, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks for this comprehensive review of text and images. Where I have not commented, I have addressed your points in a manner close to or identical to your suggestions. I am sorry I cannot elaborate on the infamous ménage-à-trois, but there we are. Brianboulton (talk) 12:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)