Fyodor Dostoyevsky edit
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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I would like to nominate this article about one of the greatest writers at GAN and later maybe at FAC. Thanks.GoPTCN 09:38, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
Give me a bit of time for this, but I'm looking forward to it. Truthkeeper (talk) 13:36, 2 June 2012 (UTC)
- Quick comments only... Referencing: there are six works by Frank cited; almost all of the inline citations are to "Frank 2009". It appears to be the overarching citation for a five-volume work. Each volume then appears to be listed, all with different publication dates, and none of them are 2009. Confusing, and also not really useful as referencing. For example, what is "Frank 2009, pp. 912–932." Is that volume 3? I wouldn't know from that text nor from the works listed at the bottom. And I hate to say it but "Frank 2009, pp. 723–803", for example, is an awfully wide page range to use seven times.
- Given that Freud is likely considered to be full of shit on the topic of Dostoyevsky's health (I mean, I don't know, but I'm guessing), I wonder if an extensive block quote from him is undue weight. ("Dostoyevsky called himself an epileptic…it is highly probable that this so-called epilepsy was only a symptom of his neurosis and must accordingly be classified as hystero-epilepsy – that is, as severe hysteria. The most probable assumption is that the attacks went back far into his childhood, that their place was taken to begin with by milder symptoms and that they did not assume an epileptic form until after the shattering experience of his eighteenth year – the murder of his father.")
- It's not clear to me why there is bolding in the block quote "Fyodor Dostoyevsy, Pisma, XXVIII, i, p. 176". Is that from the source? Riggr Mortis (talk) 05:39, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- Here's a beginning, more coming because I haven't read the entire article:
- MOS
- Numbers should be written according to WP:MOSNUM
- Blockquotes don't have leading quotation marks per WP:MOSQUOTE
Done
- Avoid the use of the cquote template
- replaced
- Fyodor > use surname instead per WP:LASTNAME
- Done, but I left out some as they don't make sense if replaced with his surname
- Some high-level links such as world literature and inferiority complex should be removed; more valuable low-level links be added.
- Done world literature and inferiority complex; linking/delinking will follow.
- Follow Plain English and avoid words such as "ameliorate"
- replaced ameliorate with improve
- Avoid inflated language per WP:Peacock
- Some are needed to explain his uniqueness and to frame his legacy.
- To be encyclopedic, it needs to be framed using neutral language, or using the language from a quote or paraphrase with attribution. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- MIsc
- Influenced by and influenced in the infobox should probably be removed
- I think it is even better to have more parameters in the infobox as the TOC is too large.
- I'm not a fan of infoboxes at all; that said, the influenced and influenced by sections are subjective unless sourced - and that makes a mess. It's just not really necessary, but up to you. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
Make the quote boxes the same color & no decorative quotation marks
- Childhood
- The information about Maria Nechayeva seems out of place; should probably be put with the information about his father
- "The nanny Alina Frolovna, who helped the family when their manor burnt down, and the serf and farmer Marei from Darovoye, who helped him to fight his early hallucinations, possibly caused by the terrible tales and gothic literature, were influential in his childhood." > a lot going on in this sentence, so it's hard to follow. Simplify?
- shortened
- "He also encountered a crime upon a nine-year-old girl there, who was found raped in the garden" > did he see the rape or find her? Needs clarification
- Done he found her.
- Youth
- "After a short visit to his brother Mikhail in Reval, Fyodor often went to concerts, operas, theatres and ballets, and was introduced to gambling by two of his friends." > needs fixing; did he only go to the theatre after visiting Mikhail?
- I don't know exactly, but I think when he passed the exams he wanted to see his brother first before gambling.
- "His job became more and more humiliating. After quitting a duty travel, he was released on 19 October 1844 as a lieutenant." Which job? Draftsman or translator?
- As a lieutenant. I am not sure but how can a draftsman or translator be a lieutenant?
- Entire section based on two sources, might need more for a different perspective
- Early publication and circles
- Might want to rename the section because it's not clear what "circles" refers to
- Done changed to "early career"
- "he hoped to obtain a wide readership in order to ameliorate his financial condition" > simplify the language
- "What matters is that my novel should cover everything. If it does not work, I will hang myself." Add reference after direct quotation
- "he idea for The Double is principally brilliant, but its external form is miscarried and full of multi-clause sentences.[14][15][11][12]" Why four cites here?
- Reber and Terras is the ref for the quote and the other are the refs for the whole section
- Order the refs
- I was told it was not necessary
- Refs should be ordered. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- "used its library" where?
- saturday and sunday ie when he had the opportunity :)
- Exile in Siberia
- Confusing - he is discovered and then suddenly at a mock execution. Was he arrested first? This section needs some work for flow. Also, does the picture show Dostoyevsky's actual mock execution or is it from a another execution?
- "Dostoyevsky and several members of the circle were nonetheless arrested on 22 April 1849 upon the request of Count A. Orlov and Emperor Nicolas I. "
- Add references after direct quotations
- Reformat the block quote to avoid the decorative quotation marks
- reformatted
- Release from prison
- Do we know what happened during the four years he was in Siberia?
- I left it out as it was not really anything special. He documented it in The House of the Dead anyway. What I know that he had haemorrhoids and was chained all the time.
- Being chained all the time is something special. I've read The House of the Dead, can you perhaps use a passage from that? Or does the introduction to the book have information? Truthkeeper (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- How and when did Wrangel become an admirer? Maybe introduce him sooner?
- Maria refuses him, yet travels with him, and then marries him? This needs a little more explanation.
- The trouble is that his second wife burnt down nearly all the letters of Maria/Dostoyevsky, so many information are not known.
- "granted permission to travel to Russia" > confusing. Probably should begin the section explaining that he was released but had to stay in Siberia, if that's the case.
- added that he was forced
- "Dostoyevsky began his trip to Europe on 7 June 1862" > comes of nowhere. Was this planned? Or maybe rewrite to say that in 1862 he traveled to Europe …"
- added that it was planned
- Time was a very popular periodical with more than 4000 subscribers, > another jarring opening. Should probably be combined with the mention of Time two paragraphs up, or make a paragraph break here
- I think it is a neat beginning of a paragraph; also it is chronologically ordered (they started the magazine -> Dostoyevsky went to Europe -> they closed the magazine)
- The second half of the last paragraph has a lot going on and it needs to be reworked for better flow: he travels again to Europe, meets another woman with whom he breaks up because of gambling (?), his brother dies (?), his wife dies. How did these events affect him? And why does he have the burden of the fees for Epokha - how is he involved with the magazine
- She left him because of her affair with an another man and because of his gambling. His brother's death resulted to high fees. The death of Maria is also changed his life as he "subsequently became the lone parent of his stepson Pasha and Mikhail's family".
- Crime and punishment
- Coming after the section above that has a lot of information stuffed into a single paragraph, the information about the stenographer seems to be detailed > also did he dictate The Gambler? It's hard to believe a book of that size was written in 26 days
- I don't think it is too detailed. It is true that he finished this book in 26 days.
- Interesting that he wrote so quickly. I'll re-read the section later. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- Suggest keeping the information about Crime and Punishment together, and the information about Snitkina together
- Avoid referring to a seizure as a "fit", also what is a "double-fit"?
- replaced A double fit are two fits in succession
- wife had to drag him away from the panel lest its grip on him induce an epileptic fit" > needs rewording
- reworded
- Who are the Raymond sisters? Someone they knew? And this: Dostoyevsky occasionally played in Saxon-les-Bains to find money > playing what? gambling?
- removed the sisters; "played" - "gambled"
- Return to Russia
- Previous section mentions Anna is pregnant a 2nd time and will give birth on 26 September; this section mentions a child to be born on July 15 - are these two different children?
- Aimee came first, then Fyodor
- Okay, thanks. I must have missed that. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- Structure
- I think maybe try combining personality and physical appearance in the general biography instead of separating it out. Also, his seizures are mentioned earlier, but maybe mention when they first began. I strongly suggest deleting Freud's quote, and generally I'm not in favor of trying give a diagnosis in hindsight - it's probably fine to mention in the bio he had seizures of an unspecified nature and leave it at that.
- Dostoyevsky's seizure is well-known by neurologists, so it deserves at least a paragraph long mention. Also I am in favour to split content from the biography to seperate sections as it is tidy and clear. I believe Freud's pseudoscientific statement should be mentioend here to keep the article neutral. His quote was mentioned by many people and he even wrote a book describing Dostoyevsky's epilepsy.
- I think this is very problematic for the following reasons: 1., Freud wrote over a century or so ago and his theory is not only dated, but truly absurd. 2., to me it reads that the article bases the diagnosis on the Oedipus theory using Freud as a source and then using other sources, debunks it, which is close to WP:SYNTH. If you want to mention Freud, go ahead and mention that Freud wrote about Dostoyevsky, but leave it at that. Surely something more has been published more recently than Freud? Truthkeeper (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- Religious beliefs - also try to incorporate in the main bio sections - the big block quote needs reformatting and trimming > all of this information maybe simplified a bit according to summary style
- The same for the section about anti-semitism
- Themes
- I'll return with suggestions for this
- Legacy
- Should mirror the lead. The lead says Hemingway was influenced by him, but it's not in the legacy section (and nothing I've read about Hemingway suggests it, though he probably was to an extent) but you need strong scholarly sources in terms of who he was influenced by and who he influenced
- expanded
- Works
- I'd move all of these synopses out of this article into the sub-articles
-
- The alternatives are Ernest Hemingway, Stephen Crane, Emily Dickinson for example. The problem is that the page is very long and I'd suggest some trimming. When I checked last week I think, off the top of my head, it topped 10,000 words (unfortunately the prose size script isn't working for me today, so can't double-check), and this would be an area to trim as it's not strictly necessary. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- Sourcing
- Try mixing up with a variety of biographies for more perspective and to be comprehensive. I need to look more closely at the sourcing
- Prose
- Will need a lot of prose work. I know you're getting help, and my suggestion is to get the facts right, more and maybe better sourcing, and then have a serious top-to-bottom copy-edit. He's an important author and I think people will help. I'll pitch in as much as I can
More later Truthkeeper (talk) 13:08, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for your fast and comprehensive review! INeverCry told me he will finish the copyediting. Your comments are much appreciated so far, thanks again. --GoPTCN 08:39, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
- Referencing
- Looking at this entire section it's important to reference the quotations to the specific source and to mention the pieces of Dostoyevsky's writing that are quoted in the source. This needs to be done throughout the article. Furthermore, some of the phrasing is very close to the source, so may need better summarizing:
Many Russian authors at that time wrote about these suicides in their works. Dostoyevsky's suicide victims are only disbelievers and models of the "new man": the Underground Man, Raskolnikov, Ippolit, Kirillov, Ivan Karamazov, Smerdiakov. In a correspondence with the atheist Petr Verkhovensky, Kirillov remarks in The Demons that "God is necessary and therefore must exist", while Verkhovensky responds "Well, that's wonderful". Kirillov then answers "But I know that He does not and cannot exist" and after a meaningless cliché by Verkhanovsky he continues "Don't you understand that a man with these two thoughts cannot go on living?", and Verkhovensky meant that the one must shoot himself. Kirillov's consequence, that "a man can shoot himself for that alone", will be realized at the end of the novel, as Kirillov begins suicide, while Verkhovensky a murder. The cause of the suicides is the characters' disbelief in God and immortality and their acceptance of the contemporary beliefs (for example positivism or materialism). Dostoyevky saw the belief in God and immortality necessary for human existence.[98][99]
Truthkeeper (talk) 21:51, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- I haven't had a chance to look at the changes yet. Will try to tonight or tomorrow. Truthkeeper (talk) 20:33, 9 June 2012 (UTC)
- Quick comment: I think you should remove the numbers from the citations and only use the years. e.g. "Frank5 2003" -> "Frank 2003". The year are enought to distinguish them. The numbers are confusing only, is "Frank4" the fourth in the "Biographies" section? Frank is used earlier in the "Bibliography" section too. Thanks for all your work on this important article! The User 567 (talk) 12:01, 8 June 2012 (UTC)
Comment: I'll review sources and cite formatting as soon as possible, most likely this weekend. - ☣Tourbillon A ? 12:46, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Brianboulton comments: I am responding to a message on my talkpage asking me to contribute to this review. I haven't got very far; just the Childhood section. I am afraid that I found the prose rather weak and error-strewn, as the following listing indicates.
- Last sentence of lead: "Dostoyevsky left a lasting influence on other writers, ranging from Ernest Hemingway to Joseph Conrad, and had an influence on philosophers and psychologists such as Friedrich Nietzsche and Sigmund Freud." Also, I don't understand "from Hemingway to Conrad". I suppose that "Conrad to Hemingway" would make some chronological sense, but since Conrad is never mentioned again in the article, the point is somewhat lost.
- shortened
- "Dostoyevsky's paternal lineage was descended from the multi-ethnic and multi-denominational Lithuanian nobility from the Pinsk region, however the family had fallen on hard times and had been reduced to the class of non-monastic clergy". The word "however" cannot follow a comma, which needs to be upgraded to a semicolon. Also, lineage means descent - lineage is not "decended from" anything, so the first part of the sentence needs rephrasing. You need to get rid of the "from...from", too.
- reworded
- You need to decide whether you are writing in British or American English. You are using the British form "practised", but "at age fifteen" is an American idiom. Also, why "fifteen" (word) here, and "20" numeric" in the next sentence?
- Done
- In a new paragraph, the first mention of a subject should be by name, not pronoun. Thus: "In 1809, at the age of 20, Mikhail gained entry..."
- Done
- "the eleven-years younger Maria" is a very awkward formulation. Why is the age gap relevant? Also, give Maria her full name.
- Done
- Since Fyodor Dostoyevsky is the subject of the article, I would expect his birth to be dealt with less perfunctorily than "After the birth of two sons, Mikhail and Fyodor, he was promoted..." etc
- Not exactly sure what you mean...
- You should provide a conversion (miles and km) for versts, rather than relying on a link which then requires readers to make further calculations
- The problem is that I don't know to which unit I should convert.
- "5 more children" - MOS requires numbers below 10 to be written.
- Done
- Another major clunk: "The nanny Alina Frolovna and the serf and farmer Marei from Darovoye, the latter of whom helped him to fight his early hallucinations, possibly caused by the terrible tales and gothic literature, were influential in his childhood." Needs rephrasing
- "miserable hospital garden" Is "miserable" really the best word to describe the garden?
- "It was on the other side where he found a nine-year-old girl raped by an insane man in the garden." "Where" should be "that"; is "found" the right word? "Raped" should be preceded by "who had been"; the last three words are redundant. In fact the entire sentence needs rewriting.
- reworded
- "he learned reading and writing with his mother from the Bible." This reads/sounds like nonsense. I assume the intended meaning is that his mother taught him to read and write, using the Bible.
- reworded
- "Fyodor's father also placed much value on a good education." This repeats the information given in the first sentence of this paragraph
- removed
If this section is typical, it would seem that the article is in need of some rigorous copyediting throughout. I don't have time to attempt this, though I am prepared to look at other sections from time to time. Brianboulton (talk) 23:01, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Comments from Wadewitz
This is a very impressive start on a very difficult article - congratulations! Below are my comments. Drop a line at my talk page if you have any additional questions.
- In general, the article needs a good copyedit. I did some of this as I was reading, but it needs a careful combing over. A few examples:
- He wrote eleven novels, three novellas, seventeen short novels and three essays - What is the difference between novellas and short novels? Why are these separate categories?
- After his graduation he worked as an engineer and briefly enjoyed a primarily liberal lifestyle. - "liberal lifestyle" is vague
- Around the mid-1840s he wrote his first novel, Poor Folk, which brought him into the mainstream. - Do you omean "which brought him recognition"?
- It was on the other side where he found a nine-year-old girl raped by an insane man in the garden. He never forgot this traumatic experience. - Unclear. He saw this happen?
- F. Dostoyevsky's career, however, seems to have been decided, as his father expected spaces at the academy for his sons, and the political propensity under Nicholas I allowed them the opportunity of a good professional military career - I'm not sure what "political propensity" means here.
- Mikhail was murdered in 1839 by one of his peasants; the cause was one of Mikhail's irascibility attacks. Fyodor continued with his disliked studies. - Very awkward wording.
- Mikhail Petrashevsky discussed in a harmless manner the possibilities of social reforms in Russia. - I'm not sure what this means.
- In this book he criticised such themes as capitalism, modernisation, materialism, catholicism and protestantism. - This seems like a huge condensation - perhaps a few more sentences?
- The magazine was also doing well, bringing around 500 new subscribers. - Confusing.
- Anna proposed to delegate her husband's copyrights and negotiated with the creditors to pay off their debts in installments. - Not sure what "delegate" is supposed to mean here - perhaps a more precise word?
- Just as the movement, he believed that the Catholic Church adopted the principles of rationalism, legalism, materialism and individualism from the ancient Rome and passed on its philosophy to Protestantism and finally to socialism, which then leads to atheism - This sentence doesn't quite make sense. I think you are trying to pack too much in.
- He was known for his gifted narrative, and through his sharp and often deep, sophisticated statements in intellectual and political discussions he was described as a spiritual guide, a teacher and even a prophet - I'm not sure what this means.
- The first paragraph of "Return to Russia" seems to come out of nowhere - I would focus the material more on Dostoyevsky and perhaps cut it down.
- In general, there is a lot of detail about traveling that seems unnecessary - I wonder if this could be cut down a bit.
- More should be said about "The Brothers Karamazov" in the biography section and how it fits into the narrative of D's life.
- The "Personality and physical appearance" section replicates much material that comes before - I would combine what isn't replicated with similar information earlier in the article.
- Why is there a section on his religious beliefs but not, say, his political beliefs? This section seems oddly long and out of place.
- I would suggest making the "Stance on Jews in Russia" a subsection of the "Religious Beliefs" section as this is properly a religious topic. Also, is there a way to connect this material to Dostoyevsky's life or writing more clearly so that it has some context for the reader?
- The "Themes and style" section is the weakest overall - it does not have a coherent structure. Because Dostoyevksy wrote so many works, it would probably be best to focus on broad themes and styles, so you should have subsections on specific themes and styles, but the section jumps around between the two. See Honoré de Balzac or Mary Shelley for ways that this has been done.
- There are too many unconnected quotes in the "Legacy" section.
I hope this helps! Wadewitz (talk) 23:44, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Finetooth comments: Responding to your request on my talk page, I've read through the article carefully but only once. I'd like to do more, but I'm temporarily one-eyed, and reading big chunks of stuff on a computer screen will not be feasible for me until at least mid-July. I agree with the reviewers above who mention the need for copyediting. The kinds of small errors noted by Brian Boulton appear in the lower sections as well as the upper. However, fixing those alone won't be enough, as you can see from the comments by Wadewitz. Here is a short list of additional problems I encountered; I'll try not to repeat the ones noted by other reviewers.
Youth
- "After quitting a duty travel, he was released on 19 October 1844... ". - What is a "duty travel"? Could that term be made more clear?
Early career
- "The idea for The Double is principally brilliant, but its external form is miscarried and full of multi-clause sentences." - This odd set of claims is apparently supported by four sources. I have not checked the sources, but it seems unlikely that all four support all of the claims within the sentence. Further, it's unclear what is meant by "principally brilliant", and although a novel can be "full of multi-clause sentences", its "form" cannot. It's also not clear how the form of the novel is "miscarried". What does that mean?
- The sentence above ends with four refs, as follows: [16][17][18][14]. These should be rearranged so that [14] appears first. Ditto for the many other strings of refs in the article. All should appear in ascending order.
Release from prison
- "thematizing his experience" - "Based on" rather than "thematizing"?
- "to being forced serving in the Siberian Army Corps" - Awkward. How about "to forced service in the Siberian Army Corps"?
- "released from military service due to a medical certificate" - Maybe "medical condition" would be better.
Crime and Punishment
- "Dostoyevsky was so captivated by the picture that his wife had to drag him away from the panel to avoid receiving an epileptic seizure." - This is awkward in multiple ways. "Induce" would be better than "receive" since it's not possible to receive a seizure. Further, the sentence structure suggests that his wife is the one who may have a seizure, and that is not what you mean to say. Finally, what is it about this particular painting that might induce an epileptic seizure? What made Snitkina think that looking at the painting was risky?
Last years
- "During his impressive and hypnotising speech... " - It would be more neutral without the peacock adjectives; "During his speech... ".
- "attacked by several people" - Why? What didn't they like about the speech?
- Looks like a lot of work is needed... Thanks for your helpfull comments. Honoré de Balzac and Mary Shelley are very good examples. The latter especially has heavy coverage in Themes and style and I think this is the most relevant example for this article. I could add a characters section, and also about his travelogues. I also can add a section about existentialism. But I still speculate where I should begin with... Wadewitz, you contributed to many articles, and I ask you where did you begin and end? Can you give me some tips? Regards.--GoPTCN 11:21, 27 June 2012 (UTC)