Wikipedia:Peer review/Belenggu/archive1

Belenggu

This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I'd like to bring it to FA class and would like feedback as to prose and comprehensiveness.

Thanks, Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:27, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

• Quick note re sourcing and comprehensiveness: reading the article I felt as though it's not fully developed, which is a requirement for a book FA. Have a look at The Sun Also Rises or True at First Light as examples. Not only is it important to pull out plot elements, themes and the like, but also to put the work in a literary and social context. I've done a quick google book search and found these, which you may or may not be able to see (hopefully you can!). Because g-book pages disappear after first or second viewing, I tend to make notes right away. Let me know if you can't view and I'll make notes for you.

• Christie
• Brakel

Lead

• Mentions Freud's psychoanalyis - but that's a huge topic. Can that be qualified at all?

Background

• I think this could do with a "Background" section to set the context (see comments above). From the little I've read it was written as a reaction or commentary about modern westernization versus more traditional values - a concept that is discussed in sources and should be mentioned in the article. Furthermore, any relevant biographical information regarding Pane should be mentioned in the background section as well for comprehensiveness. What, for example, inspired him to write this book?

• I'll try and do that this evening.

• Alright, I've added a background section and several further sources from jstor. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:14, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Might be a good idea to begin with the background section, maybe? Truthkeeper (talk) 23:53, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

• Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/ArticleTemplate gives plot first, but seeing as both yours and Maria's FAs start with a bit of background I have no issue with that. Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:00, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, but I usually move sections around and don't adhere exactly to WP:NOVSTY. Re the background, more below:

• "The first modern Indonesian novels, published by the state-owned publisher of the Dutch East Indies Balai Pustaka" > needs some sort of date for context. The early 20th century? The 1930s? Later?

• Done.

• "tended to show intergenerational conflict and conflict between traditional (adat) and modern culture" > try recasting this such that the novel isn't the subject but the writer who wrote the work is the subject and responsible for showing the general theme. Also, "tended to show" is a bit awkward.

• How's this?

• Yes, better. Truthkeeper (talk) 00:13, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• "This national awakening, which was also realised through political actions" > confusing to me because I don't know when we are in time; another reason to set up the para with a date/time period

• Done above)

• "This national awakening, which was also realised through political actions, was followed in July 1933 with the establishment of the literary magazine Poedjangga Baroe (New Writer); the magazine, which Belenggu's writer Armijn Pane helped found, was the first magazine written mainly in Indonesian and with exclusively Indonesian editors. > too long, needs to be split

Tried to split and trim.

Plot and characters

• I've mentioned this recently in a talk page review: I'm not crazy about separate character sections, though we still seem to have that as a suggested format at WP:NOVSTY. In my view it's best to wrap the characters into the plot and/or analysis sections - but it's up to you.

• As there is also critical commentary on the characters, I decided that a separate section would be more logical.

• Your call. Truthkeeper (talk) 00:18, 10 April 2012 (UTC)
• I've been thinking about this: there is a fair bit of analysis in the character section that I missed on the first read - I tend to skim through them, which is one reason I'm not big on those sections - that maybe should be in the themes section. Just something to keep in mind - if I were reviewing for FAC, I'd suggest restructuring a little, because, in my view, the information about modern vs., tradition, though germane to the characters, really seems to be a central theme to the novel. Just something to tuck in the back of your mind. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:54, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• I'll take a look. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:34, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• Rereading the section, I'm not quite sure how to cast it in the themes section. The discussion of the characters includes motives, writing, and reception, which are important to the characters. Perhaps an example? Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:47, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

Analysis

• Again briefly touches on Freud's psychoanalysis but nothing in the article to this point shows psychoanalytical themes - unless it's the internal dialogue. I think this idea either needs more development if the sources support it; otherwise it should be downplayed and maybe taken out of the lead.

• I'll take yet another look at the source.

Style

• "Another way in which he writes differently than earlier writers is by limiting his use of the Dutch language; earlier writers such as Abdul Muis and Sutan Takdir Alisjahbana used the language of the dominant colonial power to illustrate the intellectualism of the main characters" > a little unclear here. He writes in Indonesian or Dutch. And earlier (how much earlier, decades?) novels were written in Dutch? Needs a bit of clarification

• Tried to clarify

Prose

• A bit choppy in places. I'll try to copyedit, and will return with examples. Truthkeeper (talk) 22:01, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

• Thanks. That's usually my biggest weakness.

• "The resulting novel, written to represent humanity's stream of consciousness" > needs to be re-cast I think - humanity doesn't have a stream of consciousness but maybe thinks that way?

• Changed to "a"

• "Tham Seong Chee, a political scientist from Singapore, views her as a weak-willed character, unwilling to act without outside intervention and even then unable to work out her issues with Tono." > needs some clarification - who provides the "outside intervention"? Also, "unable to work out her issues with Tono" sounds a bit too informal - but it's hard to walk the line between informal and too formal

• Changed.

• kroncong > italics?

• Sure, why not... I was worried of over-italicising. Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:52, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• Belenggu was the first Indonesian psychological novel > needs clarification. Why? In what way? It's not quite developed well enough to be clear to the reader. Perhaps moving to the themes section might work, instead.

• Referenced instead, as that is a notable aspect of the work. Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:52, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
• Thanks for taking this up, I'll try and get a background section prepared after work. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:29, 8 April 2012 (UTC)

General comment

• The two sources I linked at the top of the page (and maybe you can't see them) suggest that the novel shows a conflict between modernization and traditional values, with one of the female characters representative of the modern and the other representative of the traditional. I think that may be implied in the article but it's not made explicit. To be comprehensive, if that's what current scholarship discusses, should probably be made explicit and developed fully. Truthkeeper (talk) 00:34, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

• Added another sentence. I don't see it as being very explicit in the Christie and Balfas sources, although it is mentioned in the Taum source. Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:12, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

• Yes, I think it's explicit now on a second read and maybe with some of the tweaking. I am concerned that all the sources are either foreign language or snippet view (unviewable) but I scanned Sutherland briefly. She has a diacritic for his name? Has that changed since the 1960s? Truthkeeper (talk) 00:13, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• When Sutherland was writing in 1968, Indonesia used the Soewandi Spelling System; Siregar also used the diacritic. Sources released after the spelling reform in 1972, like Teeuw, don't have the diacritic. Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:45, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• As for foreign language/offline sources, if I were limited to online English sources I'd end up with a plot and about 500 characters of discussion... The English sources should all be online though. Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:52, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• No, I understand that, I meant in terms of spot-checks, which I believe are still being done at FAC. Truthkeeper (talk) 21:54, 14 April 2012 (UTC)

• Oh, I know. Chrisye took forever for the spotcheck... thankfully Noleander was up to it. Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:34, 14 April 2012 (UTC)