Wikipedia:Peer review/Arthur Gould (rugby union)/archive1

Arthur Gould (rugby union)

This peer review discussion has been closed.
Arthur Gould was a prominent Welsh rugby union player from the 19th-Century. He was probably the first "superstar" of rugby, and was a prolific points scorer. He played for a number of famous clubs, including Newport and Richmond, and captained Wales to their first ever Triple Crown -- victories over England, Ireland and Scotland. I'm not the major contributor to this article (that is FruitMonkey (talk · contribs)), but we are hoping to get this article to Featured standard, so would really appreciate any and all feedback. We're looking at taking this to FAC at some point in the (hopefully) near future, so please be picky. We're hoping it's not too far off! Thanks, Shudde ^talk 08:11, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Review from Cliftonian

Infobox and lead

• For FA height and weight will probably need citations (also probably date the weight given, as this would surely have varied)
• We give his nickname in the infobox code as "Monk, Monkey", but this parameter doesn't seem to be used. It doesn't show up in the actual infobox.
• Perhaps put a citation for his full name (or, alternatively, just give his full name in the first sentence of the "early years" section
• "is considered the first superstar of Welsh rugby." By whom? If general consensus considers him so, perhaps put "is widely considered" or "is generally considered", or similar. I personally am not sure about this use of the word "superstar", which seems to me a little jarring in terms of tone. Is the word taken from one or more of the sources? If so, I would put it in a quotation. Otherwise I would suggest rewording.
• "when they didn't lose a match"—contractions such as "didn't" should be removed
• Mention his third brother Wyatt in the infobox

Early life

• So Joseph Gould moved to Newport from Oxford? Does that mean Gould senior was English, or was he a Welshman who had moved to Oxford? If we know from the sources this would be nice to put in.
• "Harry was present in the first season 1875–76." We could word this better

General

• Single inverted commas seem to be favoured over double; I would use the latter
• Don't center-align image captions, don't force image sizes (use |upright=1.5 to make pictures wider)

I will be back with more, this is just to start with. Well done on the article so far, I like it a lot. —Cliftonian (talk) 18:53, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback, really appreciate it! Hopefully I've addressed most of your comments.

• I've added a ref for the height and weight. I assume it was his playing height/weight, but the source doesn't give a date
• The nickname parameter has been removed as per the history at {{Infobox rugby biography}} -- I think it's a shame, but maybe it was overused in other biographies
• I'll ask FruitMonkey (talk · contribs) to check the source re Gould's father

• OK, I have discovered from the 1871 Census, Gould's mother's name and his father's birthplace, though it appears there is a typo as Cusbridge appears to not exist. Changing to the far more probable Curbridge. I have also changed the fact that he worked in the brass foundry business to actually setting up his own brass foundry business, and cited it. Richards p.73 also states that the foundry business made his dad "prosperous", but I wasn't sure how to shoe-horn that in. Cheers, FruitMonkey (talk) 18:11, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks again! – Shudde ^talk 08:13, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Early years

• "From a young age Gould was known to all as "Monk", taken from his childhood nickname "Monkey" because of his youthful passion for climbing trees" Try: The young Gould often climbed trees, and thus acquired the childhood nickname "Monkey", which as soon contracted by most to "Monk".
• Hurdling is wikilinked on the second mention and not the first
• "His other brothers were Harry,[11] Gus[12] and Wyatt,[13] and all three played rugby for Newport" Why not "His other brothers, Harry, Gus and Wyatt, all played rugby for Newport"?
• Newport RFC isn't wikilinked in the body
• "There was at least one of the six brothers in the Newport team for the club's first 29 seasons and Wyatt played until 1907. Wyatt also represented Great Britain in the 400m hurdles in the 1908 Summer Olympics at White City, London." Try "For the first 29 seasons of its existence, Newport RFC always had at least one of the six Gould brothers in the team. Wyatt played for the club until 1907, and also ran the 400m hurdles for Great Britain in the 1908 Summer Olympics in London."

Rugby career

• "Newport Junior team" Who played in the Junior team? Under-16s?
• "the Third XV, Newport Rugby Club's second reserve side" Rather confusing wording (somebody reading quickly might overlook the word "reserve", or perhaps see it and still find it confusing). Why not say "third-string side" to make it more clear
• "an emergency full back" wikilink full back
• Was Rodney Parade Newport's ground or Weston-Super-Mare's? Make clear
• "Gould saw Butcher waiting outside the full back's home and approached the groundsman to discover that the player was at a funeral" If Butcher knew the player was at a funeral, why was he waiting outside the house? I presume he only found out the player was at the funeral when he already got to the house, but then why didn't he go to where the funeral was?
• "Butcher offered Gould the position instead and he successfully persuaded the club to play him" Butcher persuaded the club?
• "had a "fairy-tale" start" according to whom? If this is a quotation attribute it
• " against his captain's wishes, as Charlie Newman" Try "against the wishes of the Newport captain, Charlie Newman, who"
• "As rugby was an amateur sport" try "was then an exclusively amateur sport"
• No need for the comma after Bob
• should be "the Imperial Team"
• "This was the fourth encounter with England" Should make clear we are saying it was Wales's first encounter with England

More to come. A minor comment regarding formatting; there are some very long paragraphs in this and I would advise breaking them up —Cliftonian (talk) 17:36, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Comments for the above:

• Not sure about Junior. I have read about teams at the time being called "Junior", but that didn't mean young, rather it meant second-tier or second-class. In this case however I'm not sure. I'll see if I can find out.

• The Junior team in relation to this quote is a 'junior', made up of younger or school boy players, but we will be hard pressed to find a quote to state what actual age-range this covered. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

• I think third-string side will not be clear either, I'll just remove reference to "second reserve"

• The third team is just that, the team two removed from the first team. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

• I think saying "home fixture" makes it clear that it was Newport's home ground
• I assume that Butcher discovered that the regular full back was at a funeral, and can't imagine he'd then travel there to ask the player to miss the funeral in order to play a football match?

• But then why wouldn't he go somewhere else to find an alternative? Why wait outside the missing player's house if a replacement were required? I'd advise looking at the source material for this again. —Cliftonian (talk) 16:19, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

• I've just removed "waiting" to eliminate this problem. -- Shudde ^talk 10:11, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

• Not clear on whether Butcher or Gould convinced the club to play him. Will look into this.

• Wondering if FruitMonkey (talk · contribs) can help me out with this? -- Shudde ^talk 10:17, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

• Wayne Thomas writes (again page 11) that Butcher persuaded Newport to let the young Gould to play. FruitMonkey (talk) 18:21, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Cheers. - Shudde ^talk 08:08, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

• If "Monkey" was generally shortened to "Monk", why don't we put "Monk" at the start of the article rather than "Monkey"?
  • His friends called him Monk (more chummy I suppose), but in print he is referred to as Monkey. FruitMonkey (talk) 23:06, 11 December 2013 (UTC)
• "London Scottish F.C. had been founded 1878 to look after the interests of Scottish players working or studying in the city" Does this mean the club actually looked after the players, providing them with homes, money etc? Seems unlikely to me as rugby was then amateur. How about "London Scottish, comprising Scottish players working or studying in the city, had been founded in 1878"
• "a club for Welsh players" What we mean is "a London club for Welsh players" (there were of course clubs for Welsh players in Wales)
• "The side's very first game" "Very" is superfluous
• "three days later the first team took to the field at the Saracens' Palmerston Road ground in Walthamstow against London Scottish" Why not just "three days later the first team played London Scottish at the Saracens' Palmerston Road ground in Walthamstow"
• "Martyn Jordan, Thomas Judson, Rowley Thomas, Charles Taylor and T. Williams; all of whom had or would play for Wales" perhaps change the semicolon for an emdash and put "all past or future Welsh internationals"
• "an impressive crowd of 8,000" "impressive" is superfluous and also not clear. I presume "impressive" refers to the number of people but it could mean that the people themselves were somehow impressive (particularly as we mention the Prince of Wales, the future Edward VII, was there)
• Change the Edward VII link, we don't need "of the United Kingdom"
• "During that season the club didn't lose a match, now known as the team's "invincible" season" Try "Newport went that whole season unbeaten, leading to its being dubbed the team's "invincible" season.
• "in both the 1893–94 season, where the team lost only three games, and again in the 1894–95 season" You say "both", so you don't need to put "again" as well. You can also cut out the second instance of "in the" without losing any meaning. Put a comma after "1894–95 season"
• try to find a source where it says "citation needed"
• Date the picture of him in his Newport jersey (I'd put "c. 1890" or similar)
• I would myself put the Newport jersey at the top of that section and on the right, with the table of his goalscoring record justified to the left
• "was a mainstay of the side during their "invincible" season of 1887–88" you don't need "of the side"
• "The match was hosted by the Earl of Sheffield,[a] and was an invitation only event" Try "The match, hosted by the Earl of Sheffield, was an invitation only event"

More to come —Cliftonian (talk) 08:05, 3 December 2013 (UTC)

• My anecdotal view is that "monkey" is pretty common as well, so don't think changing to "Monk" is necessary
• Yes that cn tag has been annoying me. It will be sorted eventually (one way or another!)

Those suggestions were all great -- thanks a lot! - Shudde ^talk 08:38, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

International career

• "Gould was first capped for Wales for the opening game" Is this the right wording? Shouldn't it be "capped for Wales in the opening game?" Also, I presume this was the opening game of the whole tournament—if it was only Wales's opening game, make clear, but otherwise leave it
• "Newport team-mate Charlie Newman" Didn't we mention above that Newman was also captain of Newport? ("Newport captain Newman"—he was clearly predestined for the role)
• "Gould was brought in at full back, at the time his preferred club position" Was this Newman's decision? The wording could imply that it was.
• "Jordan, and some accounts" replace ", and" with a semicolon
• Maybe reword "London Welsh wing Jordan" to "Martyn Jordan, the London Welsh wing"
• "at back and forwards positions" why not just "at back and forward"
• The bit about the two pairs of brothers is not sourced
• Why not mention that Bob Gould was also playing in Arthur's debut game? Was it also Bob's debut, or had he already played for Wales?
• "Newport was" not "Newport were"?
• Move the link to Cardiff RFC up to the first mention. Also don't wikilink the possessive 's in the wikilink (should be "Cardiff's"). Same re: Hancock (move link to first mention)
• Expand the "1886 Championship" link to make clear this is still the Home Nations Championship we are talking about (obvious to rugby bods yes, but not all readers will know; I had to check the link to be sure)
• "The match resulted in a Welsh loss to England, but in Wales' next game, against Scotland, Wales became the first country to trial the four threequarter system" Why "but in Wales' next game? The two things are not in conflict. Perhaps just put a full stop and a new sentence: "to England. In Wales' next game ..."
• "was a sporting disaster" "sporting" doesn't really say much—of course it was a sporting disaster, they were playing rugby. Perhaps "a tactical disaster"
• "reacted by regrouping" → "duly regrouped"
• "and readopting" → "and readopted"
• In note b, replace the first comma with a semicolon, as it is it is grammatically wrong

Down to 1890–93. More to come —Cliftonian (talk) 13:32, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Seems I've overlooked these comments. Will sort them ASAP. Thanks. -- Shudde ^talk 11:26, 17 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. A few comments/questions:

• Yes it's the same Newman - hopefully this is clear
• Unclear whether placing Gould at full back was the captain's decision. Was probably the selector's choice, but have reworded to avoid any possible confusion.
• From what I've found Bob Gould did play in that first match. I'll add some details soon.

Thanks for that. Hopefully most addressed now. – Shudde ^talk 09:12, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

1890–93

• "played all three matches of the 1890 Home Nations Championship" I think you mean he "appeared for Wales in all three of its matches in the 1890 Home Nations Championship"
• "at centre for the three games" you've just mentioned he played in all three games so "for the three games" is not needed
• "; though Gould did score his first international try" This semicolon should be a comma
• "The game is also notable for being the first appearance of Welsh sporting legend Billy Bancroft" not "being", should be "featuring"; the match itself was not Bancroft's first appearance, rather he first appeared in that game
• I'm not sure "sporting legend" is NPOV; I'd take this out, leave just as "first appearance of Billy Bancroft"
• "the Swansea all-round sportsman would take over the captaincy from Gould on his retirement" word missing here—put "who" after "sportsman"
• I'd put a full stop at the end of this fragment and start a new sentence: "Bancroft was Gould's full back for his next 18 international games"
• In the above fragment, are we meaning Bancroft's next 18 internationals, or Gould's? (or both?)
• "as he and his brother Bob, had gone to the West Indies" remove this comma
• "On Gould's return he regained his international place and the captaincy for the 1892 Championship and was rejoined at centre by Garrett" Try "Gould regained his international place and captaincy on his return, and was rejoined at centre by Garrett for the 1892 Championship"
• "a dire campaign" try "a dire tournament", Wales only played three games
• "losing all three matches for the first time in the country's history" try "which lost all three of its matches for the first time ever"
• "Garret against England" spelling
• "his younger brother Bert" make clear this is Bert Gould, present wording could imply this was Rees's brother (try "Gould's younger brother Bert")
• "Wales versus Scotland encounter" try "Wales–Scotland encounter"
• "in Swansea at St. Helen's" Why is Swansea linked here and not higher up? Link only on the first mention
• "Wales had lost the game 7–2, and upset at some of his decisions, members of the crowd attacked the match referee Jack Hodgson at the end of the game" Try "After Wales lost 7–2, members of the crowd, angered by Jack Hodgson's refereeing of the game, attacked him."
• "The 1893 Home Nations Championship was ..." This paragraph is very long, I would split it following "by a strong wind", and after " this time the conversion missed." (be sure to put an inline citation after this when you split the paragraph up)
• briefly explain that the triple crown means they beat all three rival Home Nations
• "freezing-over" don't need this hyphen
• wikilink braziers
• "The English team" why not just "The English" ?
• "7–9 to England" shouldn't this be "9–7 to England"?
• what position did Percy Phillips play for Wales in this game?
• "anther" typo—another
• " victorious 12–11" put a comma before the score
• " cheered all the way by supporters" you don't need "by supporters" (Clear from context)
• "It was a defining moment for the Welsh style of play and the next season England adopted the four threequarter system" I'd split this ("It was a defining moment for the Welsh style of play. England adopted the four threequarter system the following year.")
• give McCutcheon's full name
• "; all resulting after presicion handling from the backs" try ", all the result of precision handling by the Welsh backs"
• Link Llanelli RFC at its first mention (right now it is linked at the section mention)

Down to 1894–97 now, will come back to finish. Hope this helps —Cliftonian (talk) 11:19, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Definitely helps. Hopefully addressed most those comments.

• Not sure what position Percy Phillips was playing. Will look this up.

Thanks again! -- Shudde ^talk 22:12, 22 December 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Rejectwater

• I think the image alts are perfect. Bravo.
• http://www.welshsportshalloffame.co.uk/news.html is a dead link.
• Tables have to comply with WP:ACCESS. See MOS:DTT for help with this.
• This guy was known as "Monkey"? That's one of my nicknames. He's my new favorite rugby player.
• Is there a wikilink for "swerve", or is my vocabulary simply deficient in this case? Is swerve a condition?
• I'm not sure about how the citations work. After "Gould could side-step and kick with either foot" there is a cite. I hover over it and get a tooltip pop up with a link to "Wanganui Chronicle". I click on that link and am taken to the bottom of the page where there is a link to an online article. I don't get this. I can understand if you have printed sources such as books, newspaper articles, etc, those would not have external links obviously, and if they are cited repeatedly the base source would be listed once in a separate section from the citations. I can be convinced of the correctness of this format, but right now it seems like a mish-mash that makes it unneccessarily difficult to determine what the source is for any given bit of information. Rejectwater (talk) 21:52, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

• Hey. Thanks for your comments. Think I've addressed them all. I provided a link to the wiktionary entry for "swerve". The citations are similar to how I have set them out in other articles I've contributed to. I'll give your comments some thought, and try and see if there is a better way to format/present the references. - Shudde ^talk 09:19, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

• Missing row scopes in the "Gould's scoring record at Newport 1891–97" table. Rejectwater (talk) 00:24, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

• Fixed those thanks. -- Shudde ^talk 10:38, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Review from Resolute

I'll try not to duplicate any comments Clifftonian has already left. Also, being Canadian, I find that British English is pretty much a foreign language (smirk), so I won't be concerning myself too much with language and prose.

Lead

• full back (rugby union) is linked twice.

Club and country history

• On the 18 November 1882 Newport had a home fixture against Weston-super-Mare at Rodney Parade. - Misplaced 'the'
• The end of the first paragraph is confusing to me. Within two sentences, you've moved from Gould's first senior game to a career overview to his fourth season.
• What is a "three-quarter"?
• Citation for the scoring table?
• In June 1890 Gould left Britain... - run-on sentence. Probably best to break this into two.
• ...but from 1887–98 Gould scored 136 tries and dropped 42 - I would probably word this as "but from 1887 until 1898" or "between 1887 and 1898" rather than use a date range. Also, the CN tag will have to be resolved.

International

• Gould was re-selected for the second game of the tournament, a draw away to Scotland, which saw both teams play brothers at back and forwards positions; George and Richard Maitland for Scotland and Gould and Bob for Wales - Needs citation. Also, I don't like mixing last and first names like this. "And Gould and Bob" sounds quite awkward.
• The paragraph about the 1886 Scotland vs. Wales match is disjointed to me. It is mentioned that the match was historic, then switches to short history of the "four threequarter system", then it reads as if Wales floundered around the field for a while. Perhaps reorganize the paragraph to start with how the system was expanding, and then mention how the matchup was historic as the first time it had been employed internationally?

• a game which Wales lost to Scotland 5–1; though Gould scored the only Welsh points of the match with his first international try. - This may make sense to someone conversant with historical scoring formats, but that reads to me as a literal score of 5–1, yet noting that Gould scored a try suggests that this means five tries to one?
• Citation needed for Bancroft's first game, and that he took the captaincy from Gould.

That's all for a first pass. Resolute 22:46, 30 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Really appreciate the comments; prose is definitely not a strong point of mine.

• linked three-quarter
• Hopefully we'll have a source for that ref tag soon.
• I've reworded the first paragraph of the Club and country history section. Hope this works.

Will address the others soon. Thanks again! -- Shudde ^talk 10:56, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Tried to fix up the 1886 article on the adoption of the four threequarters system. Let me know what you think. – Shudde ^talk 10:34, 4 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Resolute (talk · contribs), pretty sure I've addressed all these points. Please let me know if they're adequate or if you have any more comments. -- Shudde ^talk 10:14, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Yw. I'll try to take another look at some point soon. Cheers! Resolute 14:29, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

Comments by Sarastro

I've just looked at the lead so far, more to follow.

• ”and is generally considered the first superstar of Welsh rugby.[3][4][5]”: This is referenced in the main body, so these references aren’t needed here. But I think something more like “most critics [contemporary critics? Modern critics? Who thinks this? And I’d prefer it without “most” unless the sources explicitly make this very point] consider him…”
• ”A superb all round player and even-time sprinter with swerve”: Superb is POV. What is an even-time sprinter, and what is swerve in this context? The link really does not help.
• ”and was widely regarded as the outstanding player of his time.” This is a little too similar to the superstar point, and I wonder if these could be combined somehow? But again, who was regarding him? We need some attribution within the sentence, but we don’t need a reference as long as this is cited in the main body.
• ”at age eighteen”: Slightly odd phrasing. What about “at the age of eighteen” or “aged eighteen”. And why do we write out eighteen here while we have “18 as captain” earlier.
• ”As well as playing for Newport during their "invincible" season of 1891–92, when they did not lose a match, he also scored 37 tries in Newport's 24-game 1893–94 season, a club record that still stands.”: I don’t see a connection between the two parts of this sentence, so “as well as” may not be the best way to start. Also, why do we need the “invincible part”? This could just be written as “during the 1891-92 season”.
• ”he defined himself as a great player and captain in that tournament's match against England”: This is rather oddly phrased. Defined himself? Maybe “his performance against England etc etc established him as a great player”?
• ”The game was played in front of 17,000 supporters at Rodney Parade, and was the 18th time Gould had captained his country – a record eventually broken by Ieuan Evans in 1994.”: Clarify the record, it may not be obvious to everyone that it refers to the captaincy appearances. It could be taken to refer to the attendance.
• ”after agreeing to abide by all by-laws from then on.”: The repetition of by makes this like a tongue-twister! Perhaps rephrase?
• There are a couple of other instances where numbers are given as words or figures in the lead, and I wonder if a consistent rule is being applied. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:25, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments:

• I have removed the references. I'm not sure about "critics" (one could also call them historians, or even scholars), but have gone with it. See what you think.
• An even-time sprinter is someone who can do 100 yards in 10 seconds (well, less than 11 seconds). It's not a common expression, but is supported by sources. Unsure how I'll reword this.

• I don't think the lead needs such detail. Why not just something like "fast sprinter"?

• superb -> talented?

• Better. Sarastro1 (talk) 13:23, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

• Unbeaten seasons were often called "invincible" seasons, I think leaving it is worthwhile, as it can be referred to as solely their "invincible" season (rather than their "invincible season of 1891-92").
• I'm not sure the record could be taken to mean attendance. I see what you're saying, however it's that Ieuan Evans broke the record that should make this clear (how Evans could break an attendance record I'm not sure).

• OK, but be aware that someone will probably point this out later, either at FAC or if it is ever TFAR! Pedants are everywhere! Sarastro1 (talk) 13:23, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

• I actually completely changed the by-laws bit. There were a couple of things that allowed the WFU to rejoin the IRFB (and let everyone save face). One was that Gould not play for Wales again - which was easy because he had retired.
• Will have a close read of the MoS regarding whether and when to use figures or words.

Nearly addressed all your comments. Mostly there. Thanks for your feedback. Really appreciated it. - Shudde ^talk 23:27, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

As per WP:NUMERAL -- Ages are typically stated in figures, unless it is a large, approximate quantity -- I've gone with figures for any ages. -- Shudde ^talk 07:59, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Early life

• I did some light copy-editing of this section, mainly to tweak a surplus of commas. Feel free to change or revert anything, but the commas became a little confusing in places.
• Do we need four references for the first sentence? Also, I notice that one of them references the census: that is always a big no-no at FAC. However, the same information is available here at the ODNB, and a little more. Most (all?) UK libraries have free access to this, and most library cards will allow access from any computer. I would suggest checking it out if you haven't done so, and it certainly covers that first sentence much better than using four refs.
  • That ref was great! Thanks for that, have removed the census ref. -- Shudde ^talk 11:52, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
• "and made money during his years as a rugby player by entering track and field meets": Perhaps I'm wrong, but would he not have competed as an amateur? I think all events were basically amateur then, so how would he have made money?
  • I'll have to get FruitMonkey (talk · contribs) to look into this, as I don't have access to the reference. -- Shudde ^talk 11:16, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
    • The oxfordnb.com reference answers this, apparently he made £1000 through his athletics! -- Shudde ^talk 11:52, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Rugby career

• "a few games for the Third XV": Can we link or give a note to explain both "third" and "XV". I imagine most rugby readers and the majority of UK readers will understand this terminology, but your readership is likely to be wider than that and this may baffle them.
  • I've added an unreferenced (as per WP:BLUE) note.
• "as an emergency full back": Presumably this means a last minute choice, but some readers may think that this refers to a specific role.
  • Just removed emergency, that he was drafted into the team late is explained anyway.
• "Gould, who was returning from a youth match, saw Butcher outside the missing full back's home and approached the groundsman to discover that the player was at a funeral. ": This is slightly confusing. Why would Gould approach the full back's house (and it might be good to name this full back)? Why would he want to know where he was? How did Butcher know the player was at a funeral, and if he did, why was he still there?
  • I'm not sure any of those questions are particularly important. I don't think him seeing the groundsman is very hard to believe, and he'd probably know him if he played for the Third XV. As Gould's family was closely associated with the club, and Bob was playing for them at the time, him asking about the fullback, and knowing the groundsman doesn't seem that strange to me. -- Shudde ^talk 11:42, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
• "Butcher offered Gould the position instead, and then the groundsman successfully persuaded the club to play him": And presumably they had returned to the team by this point? And how was a groundsman able to persuade a club to play him? And who did he persuade? The captain?
  • Not sure if it was the captain, but again not surprised it was hard to convince whomever. They were down a man, and in those times drafting players into sides late wouldn't have been unusual. -- Shudde ^talk 11:42, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
    • It was the captain, and probably someone on the club selection committee. -- Shudde ^talk 02:44, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• "Gould had a "fairy-tale" start for his club": Why do we need quotation marks here? Fairy-tale is hardly encyclopaedic, so something better may be needed.
  • Reworded. -- Shudde ^talk 02:44, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• "running in two tries, against the wishes of the Newport captain, Charlie Newman, who kept shouting for Gould to "Kick, kick!"": This makes Newman look like a bit of an idiot, but am I correct in thinking that goals counted for more than any number of tries at this stage in the game's history? Certainly, the points were not the same as they are now and tries less "valued". If that is the case, he looks less stupid, so something may need adding to the text, even if it is just a note.
  • Him calling to kick doesn't mean he wanted Gould to kick for goal. Kicking could also have been positional (territorial), and most likely would have been a more conservative tactic than to run. I'm not sure if it makes Newman look stupid, but may make him look conservative, or risk averse. Because of this a note may not be appropriate -- these are my reading of his instructions, so without a more detailed source, I can't be sure of Newmans thinking, and would instead be speculating. -- Shudde ^talk 02:44, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
• "scoring 10 tries and 5 dropped goals": Would these be better spelt out as words?
• "6–8, in an away game": Do we need this detail?
• "During the 1893–94 season Gould scored 37 tries in 24 games, a club record that still stands": This needs to be a bit more precise, per WP:DATED. For example, "still a club record as of [date]."

More to come. Sarastro1 (talk) 13:23, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Just a comment to say I've seen your comments (greatly appreciated), and will address them in the next couple of days. Thanks! – Shudde ^talk 11:08, 4 January 2014 (UTC)

Have addressed those other comments. -- Shudde ^talk 02:51, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

1885-89:

• "with the eight Welsh forwards being poorly chosen to cope with the nine Scottish forwards": Needs attribution (according to...) or it looks like POV. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:53, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Break

1890-93

• ”This was a dire tournament for the Welsh team”: dire is a bit harsh, and reads like editorial voice.
• ”The 1892 Championship is often best remembered”: Not sure this works for a general audience. Only real specialists would “remember” the game, and maybe something like “was famous for” would work better.
• ”with Marshall scoring a second try”: The construction “with noun plus verb-ing” is generally frowned upon at FAC, and a more elegant phrasing may be better.
• ”took a swift heeled ball”: Took a what? Sarastro1 (talk) 22:07, 8 January 2014 (UTC)

Think I've addressed all those. I reworded to "swiftly heeled ball" -- hopefully this makes sense and isn't too jargony. – Shudde ^talk 04:04, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it is because it is jargony that I have a bit of a problem with it. I'm none too sure what it means. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I'll have a go at rewording it. – Shudde ^talk 05:28, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

1894-97

• There are a few occasions in which we use "saw" meaning "it happened then". Personally, I really dislike that construction, and I notice one in this section. In my ideal world, we'd replace all of these, but I'm not going to insist. It just strikes me as slightly inelegant journalese.
  • I agree with you. I'll reword. -- Shudde ^talk 05:28, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• "to give the backs quick ball": I think "quick ball" is a little jargony.
• "In the next match Gould was partnered by Dai Fitzgerald in a win over Scotland, but was unavailable for the encounter with Ireland and was replaced by Jack Elliott from Cardiff RFC.": This is the last sentence in the paragraph and has no reference. I assume it is covered in the next paragraph, but the end of a paragraph like this really should be referenced. There is the same problem in the second paragraph and, particularly noticeably in the last one, where there seems to be a long chunk with no reference.
• Is it worth a note to explain that replacements were not allowed after injuries, as they are in modern times?
  • I added a note on this. -- Shudde ^talk 05:28, 12 January 2014 (UTC)
• In passing, I notice the concerns over the testimonial. This was never an issue in cricket, where the "amateurs" lined their pockets all the time and few people batted an eyelid until a scandal in 1896 which partially involved Stoddart! Sarastro1 (talk) 20:53, 11 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Yeah before 1895 – when the Northern Rugby Union (later the Rugby Football League) split away – rugby was a bit more of a wild west regarding amateurism. A lot of the rules regarding professionalism were drafted here and there, often in response to what was happening in association football. After the "split" however the RFU cracked down completely, and there was less and less middle ground. Cricket handled the amateur/professional issue a lot better than rugby. -- Shudde ^talk 05:57, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

The Gould affair

• "This drew the Welsh Football Union (WFU) into a confrontation with the IRFB, as rule 2 on professionalism stated that no player is allowed to receive money from his club, or any member of his club, for services rendered to football": As the rule no longer exists (and we say "stated") should it be "no player was allowed"?
• "The fund could be seen as a professional fee to Gould, henceforth making him ineligible to play for his country.": I think the tenses are a bit off here. As written, it looks like no-one made this suggestion. Maybe "could have been seen" or just "Some believed that the fund represented a professional fee..."
• "There was also a belief from other national unions that the monies may be given to Gould after he had retired from rugby.": Why is this directly after the Welsh reaction? It is a little out of place and perhaps needs making less of an abrupt shift. And I think "Other national unions believed..." would be more elegant.
• "His funeral was reported as the biggest ever seen in Wales, until almost 30 years later when former British Prime Minister David Lloyd George died": As written, this says that when Lloyd George died, his funeral was no longer reported. A slight rephrase needed.
• "Gould is regarded as the first superstar of Welsh rugby": Regarded by who?

And I think that is everything for the moment. Ping me if there are any other issues, and let me know when this goes to FAC. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:43, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

I've addressed most of your comments and will go through and clean up any remaining concerns. Thanks a lot for your review, it's been very valuable. Think the article is nearly ready for FAC, and I will let you know when we nominate it. -- Shudde ^talk 05:57, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Thanks to everyone that contributed to this peer review. There have been a lot of comments and they're all appreciated! There are a few remaining comments, but I'm pretty sure we'll be able to address those on the article's talk page. So I'm going to close the PR -- thanks again to all of you. -- Shudde ^talk 08:33, 13 January 2014 (UTC)