Wikipedia:Peer review/A Child of Our Time/archive1

A Child of Our Time

This peer review discussion has been closed.

Michael Tippett wrote this semi-dramatic oratorio in the early years of the Second World War. It specifically depicts the plight of the Jews at the hands of the Nazis, but Tippett generalises the theme to create a work of sympathy and hope for oppressed people everywhere. The work's most singular feature is Tippett's use of familiar spirituals ("Steal away", "Go down, Moses", "Deep River") in the manner of Bach chorales, as the pillars around which the oratorio is formed. I hope that it might be TFA on an appropriate anniversary (e.g. Holocaust Remembrance Day, 7 April 2013, or perhaps one of the anniversaries of Kristallnacht, 9 November. Comments and suggestions for improvement most welcome. Brianboulton (talk) 13:44, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Comments from Tim Riley – I am embarrassed at how little I have to contribute. I've amended a handful of typos, but please check my changes. Otherwise these are the only points I found:

• Composition
  • End of first para – "slaves songs" – "slave songs"?
• Wider audience
  • "Carnegie Hall, Boston" – For all I know there may be one in Boston but the one you've linked to is elsewhere.
• Later performances
  • "ENO ventured…" – slightly value-laden verb, perhaps? (Though I agree with the implication.)
  • "Also in 2005" – some people (not me) get very exercised about starting a sentence with Also.
• Music
  • "Ternary" – I had to look that one up; and "soli" is perhaps rather an expensive word (to borrow Wehwalt's pleasing phrase). In re ternary I can hear Barry Cryer's voice in my mind's ear defining Ternary as "Like a Turner", but I digress.

To supplement the above meagre donation I have asked a non-Wikipedian friend who knows A Child of Our Time very well to let me have his thoughts on the article, and I'll pass on anything ad rem that he comes up with. – Tim riley (talk) 16:05, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

All the above are fixed. Of course Carnegie Hall is in NY, and I agree with Cryer about "ternary". I look forward to your friend's input, if he can find the time. Brianboulton (talk) 23:17, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

He was no more able to pick holes than I was: "Exemplary stuff. I send my congratulations to the author. I rather regret we are no longer allowed to call negro spirituals negro spirituals, but we must move with the times. How right Ian Kemp, who died recently, was to write that 'one of the supreme moments in Tippett's music' occurs towards the end of Part One, as the soprano aria 'How can I cherish my man' melts into the spiritual 'Steal away': 'a [transition] so poignant as to set off that instant shock of recognition that floods the eyes with emotion ... although the soprano continues to grieve in a floating melisma, the spiritual comes as a relief as well as a release'. I have just burst into tears listening to this passage in the Pritchard recording, which I have always found more moving than either of the Davis recordings I've heard. It has the great and sublime Elsie Morison singing the soprano part." Tim riley (talk) 13:45, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Please tell your friend how much I appreciate his comment. I have had the Pritchard recording since 1974, and none of the others (I haven't heard the latest two) come near it. I agree that Kemp's prose exactly captures that magic moment in Part I, comparable in my view to that instant in Das Rheingold when a beam of sunlight suddenly reveals the gold... Brianboulton (talk) 09:06, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Comments from Wehwalt

Here is the first part of my review, the rest will follow, although possibly not until the weekend as I will be traveling the next few days.

Background

• Can we get at least a soundbite as to the manner in which his parents were unconventional?
• " Stamford bookshop of Stanford's" Perhaps change the Stamford to "local"
• "both through his participation in the North Yorkshire work camps " This needs clarification
• "evident persecution" I would strike "evident"
• How did Tippett earn a living during the 1930s?

Libretto

• "Beyond its specific story," I would delete this phrase, or substitute something else
• "where after much travail" Since you are discussing a journey, I would avoid "where". Perhaps "in which"?

Composition

• "31 August 1939. Three days later, on the day the Second World War broke out," Well, it broke out on the 1st. The British/French ultimatum expired on the 3rd, and war was declared.
• " atheists, agnostics and Jews as well as to Christians." Will the source support something like "people regardless of religious belief"?
• "19th century" possible need for hyphen.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:54, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• I have fixed all these, except the question of how Tippett supported himself in the 1930s. It is not clear from the sources what activities he got paid for and what he did for free. He may have been paid something for organising the music classes at the work camps. He probably got paid some pittance for training and rehearsing the South London Orchestra. He probably did some piano teaching., as well. The sources don't help much, though the inference is that he lived frugally.

I look forward to any further comments you can provide. Brianboulton (talk) 21:47, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Wehwalt, resuming

Conscientious objector

• "official tribunal" Suggest delete "official".

Premiere

• "youthful music critic John Amis Tippett" perhaps could benefit from a comma before Tippett
• Was there any controversy about a performance being given, in wartime, by a conshie, who had even refused to be an ARP?

• Not as far as I can see. Tippett was strongly supported by the British music establishment (Vaughan Williams, Bliss, Britten etc), and conshies were generally tolerated in the UK during WWII, provided they didn't parade their beliefs too insistently. Brianboulton (talk) 13:35, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

• "despite its weaker passages " Since you have not given the reader acquaintance as to which these weaker passages are, suggest change to "despite some weak passages".

Early performances

• "attempting to establish the North German Radio Symphony Orchestra in Hamburg." This reads a bit oddly, attempting to found something which already has a full formal name? You may want a "what became known as" or a similar construction.
• "Mátyás Seiber" Can you not contrive to mention him before the quote in which his name appears in the previous section, thus avoiding the need for an unlinked first usage?

• This might prove difficult without some highly artificial shifts of material, but I'll see if it can be done. Brianboulton (talk) 13:35, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

• " Karajan asked Tippett if he would object to an extra interval in Part II; Tippett replied that he would mind very much." Nicely done!

Wider audiences

• "the two main Israeli newspapers". Hm. Personally I prefer the Jerusalem Post, even if some find them too conservative. Perhaps "two major Israeli ..." without the, er, "the"?

• Well, I prefer the JP too, simply because it's in English. It has a relatively small circulation, though. However, I've adjusted as you suggest. Brianboulton (talk) 13:35, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

• "America" I would say "the United States" on first usage, especially as you have an "American" next on the track.
• "girls' college" Hm. National styles and so forth, but this reads oddly to an American ear. If this was a high school, then girls would be fine, though college should be changed, but if it's an institute of higher education, I would avoid the word. Such places are "maddest folly going", anyway.

• I followed the source in calling it a "girl's college", but realise that "women's college" is more appropriate (and it also aligns with your Gilbertian sally). Brianboulton (talk) 13:35, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

• Speaking as the London representative of Ssilvers Inc, I desire to associate myself with that expression of Gilbertian phrasing. – Tim riley (talk) 15:31, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Later performances

• Tippett's death might well be mentioned, I see you have in the lede as his birth and death dates, but the reader may have forgotten, it also helps support the reference in the lede, if someone deems it worth arguing about.
• "2010 Grant Park Music Festival" A location would be helpful. Chicago?

That's all I have. Excellent as usual.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:26, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the comments. Unless stated otherwise I have taken your suggestions on board (with the Seiber issue outstanding). Brianboulton (talk) 13:35, 18 May 2012 (UTC)