Wikipedia:Peer review/3D Monster Maze/archive2

3D Monster Maze

There was a pretty low-traffic peer review of this article before, Wikipedia:Peer review/3D Monster Maze/archive1. Thereafter, it had went through a FAC which failed, and a lot of modifications have been done to address the concerns raised. In the current state, one of the original FAC objectors is happy about the article enough to say it has "much potential" on the FAC if resubmitted again. Since there are still some issues I am unsure of (note also that I am not a native English speaker), I would be happy to have your help. Please be sure to read the article talk page, not just the article itself, before commenting/helping. --BACbKA 10:40, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I made some minor copyediting in the article. Here are some comments:

1. Statements about the game being "one of the most fondly remembered games on the retrogaming scene" and such cannot be stated as fact. There is no way to verify that a game is "fondly remembered". It is best to atribute this opinion to someone else in the article ("John Doe says that this is one of the most..."), providing this someone is notable enough, or provide other means of asserting the game's popularity (maybe availabilty of websites or of ROMs downloads?).
2. Those lines IN CAPITAL LETTERS in the Gaming section JUST LOOK INELEGANT. ;-) Even if the text was in all-caps in the game, I think it's OK to change it here.
3. The paragraph about first-person shooter vs. first-person adventure is a bit tricky. I don't think the article should label one source as incorrect in the way it does. It's better to find some notable source that says that this is a FPA and ascribe the opinion to this source, otherwise it may be labeled as original research.
4. The "Impact" section is a bit out of place. It's mainly about other games, and when it does talk about 3D Monster Maze it's in the form of peacock statements, other than the FPA vs. FPS issue addressed above.
5. The "Critical acclaim" section has too many quotes. It's better to choose a significant one to appear fully, and summarize the others.
6. All those references to BASIC need to be adjusted to the layman (like me). JoaoRicardo^talk 15:42, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments.

1. The "fondly remembered" refers specifically to the referred material (reviews and the references). I'll try to reword it in the way you suggest.
2. The capital letters probably will be fine indeed to re-format in another font, maybe just emphasis. I still think they should be caps in the image annotation (accessibility etc.), what do you think?
   Following Maclean's comments and changes below, I would like to stick to the caps still, until more people feel the same as you do on this issue. The ugliness is precisely the part of the experience of the old game, along with the very low resolution of the graphics. --BACbKA 12:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
3. As for the FPA/FPS business, I am a bit uneasy about what is going on here myself. Basically, the whole categorization business on Wikipedia is sometimes original research, because for various issues (like this one), the inclusion criteria is blurred (to say nothing of the "who's considered Jewish" question)... I have seen personally no source classifying 3DMAZE as an FPA, but the editor who had added the FPA thing clearly was referring to the FPA definition used on Wikipedia (whether that one is original research or not is another story).
4. Thank you for that peacock link, I didn't remember javing read it. Do you think the "landmark" is such a term? I thought it is a pretty neutral one, but one that does giving the credit to 3DMAZE for being an epochal event in the history of the computer games. The mission of the section is to do that mention, and do it with enough historical context. Do you think it's redundant altogether? If not, do you have a good idea how to re-word it? (Please note that I'm not a native speaker, and as such may not perceive enough "peacockishness" in the terms used etc.)
5. Regarding the critical acclaim I don't have in mind something distinctly better yet, but I'll try to move along the lines you've suggested.
6. I'll try to put more BASIC context in as well.

Thanks again! --BACbKA 20:46, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

• This is on its way to becoming a featured article. It just needs some cleaning up of the writing (which I will help with) and some refining of the discussion, specifically with the "Impact" and "Gameplay" sections. Perhaps this paper can help. I disagree with JoaoRicardo's recommendation against CAPS - I would side with keeping them as printed as they are quotes - but if they tell you otherwise at WP:FAC do what they say. Also, the "critical acclaim" section may need to be re-formatted to something be more neutral. I realize this is more of a historical curiousity than a commercial product, but the article needs to distinguish between its commercial hype and its neutral critiques. --maclean25 19:19, 17 January 2006 (UTC)
  • I have edited the 3D Monster Maze article. Please review the change and revert whatever you do not agree with. Several comments/questions:
    • I did not believe the spoiler template was necessary as there was no surprise plot twists. It is a pretty simple plot.
    • I'm confused on how the game can end. When you are eaten, game over right? Does it go on forever if you are not eaten? what is that bit about the appeals? Are there different levels?
    • In the "Impact" section please provide a reference for the first paragraph for the "had a significant impact..." or "made it a landmark game in the history..."
    • For the second paragraph in that section, specifically relate these other games to Monster Maze. --maclean25 06:47, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Dear Maclean,

thank you very much for your edits. The language sounds much more encyclopedic following your edits. While you suggest to revert whatever I disagree with, I would like to hear your opinion on the points I had slight reservations about. Sorry for not answering right away, I have been a bit busy outside wikipedia last week.

• The spoiler is there as per the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computer_and_video_games#Style recommendation. I do agree with you that there excitement from anticipation of the game doesn't diminish when reading it; the only place with "surprise" factor might be the sudden self-reset in the "appeal accepted" case. I'm not putting it back, unless they ask me to.
• The only reason I had the scrolling game legend (ROLL UP, ROLL UP, SEE THE AMAZING TYRANNOSAURUS REX KING OF THE DINOSAURS IN HIS LAIR. PERFECTLY PRESERVED IN SILICON SINCE PREHISTORIC TIMES,HE IS BROUGHT TO YOU...) repeated in the image annotation was accessibility reasons. I think that accessibility is an important thing in an encyclopaedia, although I agree with you that the text gets perhaps a bit too much weight. Maybe here is a good place to downgrade the caps and leave it as is? On the other hand, I have just added the text to the image page; so whoever really is in desperate need of the text might find it there. Thus, it would be possible to leave it your way, or, maybe, you have a good idea how to leave a small hint (tagged with some accessibility-related markup, which would diminish the text under the regular stylesheets??) that the image page has the full text?
• With respect to your game end confusion, I am sorry to not having expressed myself correctly. You would have to start again if eaten (with 0 score), unless you appeal and have the appeal accepted. If you exit, you have to continue in the next maze with accumulating score. You're welcome to exact the text accordingly; I thought it's clear already.
• Regarding the impact/landmark first sentence, I was basing it on the 2nd and 3rd references from the Refs section (SU25 and SU18). Do you feel that it should be reworded as in "the 1st 3D game... according, for example, to (ref1) (ref2)"? I've got the references annotated accordingly in the references section and referenced elsewhere in the article (the same claim has already been referenced in the lead section); I was afraid to overreference to the same thing. Maybe, I should move the references from the lead section over to the other sections?
• {{Main|History of computer and video games}} was my attempt to relate 3DMAZE to these other games. I had a feeling that this section does a good job of putting it into the historical context. I noticed that some of the game description articles are more about gameplay and technology, but I find the history perspective quite encyclopaedic as well, and hence had it in. Would you mind me just putting it back as an answer to your request to relate the games?

Also, could you please look at the talk page? I would especially like a native speaker's opinion on the 2nd-person language issue raised there.

Thank you very much again for your help, BACbKA 12:25, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

P.S. I've put back the Main... into the Impact section, and also reworded the 1st sentence a bit, so as not to imply any additional significance of the impact beyond precisely what's written and referenced. --BACbKA 12:22, 30 January 2006 (UTC)