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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/NBA All-Star Game Most Valuable Player Award

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by User:The Rambling Man 16:18, 19 August 2008 [1].

NBA All-Star Game Most Valuable Player Award edit

previous FLC (11:53, 7 August 2008)

I am renominating the list with K. Annoyomous24 because not many people commented in the last FLC.—Chris! ct 18:05, 7 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Killervogel5

Comments from Killervogel5

  • Link the years 1951, 1952, 1953 in the lead. They should go to related NBA season links rather than stand-alone years.
DONE! -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! Please reply on my talk page. Thanks. 23:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you are going to include the All-Star game navbox, change the list in the navbox to appropriately match the article title.
DONE! -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! Please reply on my talk page. Thanks. 23:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aesthetically, the nationality column strikes me as abnormally large. Would you maybe consider shortening "United States" and "United States Virgin Islands" to their IOC codes (USA and ISV, respectively)? There are places in the lead where abbreviations can be put in as well.
If you look at the table, it's fairly thin, and if I do that, it will look like an anorexic table. I think we should just leave it that way. -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! Please reply on my talk page. Thanks. 23:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The table is not sortable, so United States and United States Virgin Islands only need to be linked on their first occurrence.
The table is not sortable because of all the row spans and column spans. I have to see what Chrishomingtang thinks about it. -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! Please reply on my talk page. Thanks. 23:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The above also goes for team names and player names.
look above. -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! Please reply on my talk page. Thanks. 23:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it should be sorted. Just de-link the teams since it stays in order. That's all. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on!
Check if it's ok! Also, the whole Nationality column are templates. -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! Please reply on my talk page. Thanks. 23:16, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The reference from NBA.com (the official team source) should be replaced by an source external to the league if one can be found.
DONE!
Review by KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 22:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I like it this way... looks good. I think that having Tim Duncan as US and USVI is unnecessary. I think that it could just be USVI with the footnote from the bottom and that's all. The footnote explains that he plays for the US internationally, and it explains that he's a citizen of the US... the US designation really is redundant. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 17:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Chrishomingtang said that since he is a citizen of the United States, his nationality should be both. I still think it should only be {{VIR}} but he doesn't agree. -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! Please reply on my talk page. Thanks. 17:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with you; redundancy has no place in a FL. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 17:46, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Plus, we need a verification that people who are born in Virgin Islands automatically become US citizens. --Crzycheetah 21:29, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The legal precedent for that is jus soli, or "right of the land", so that's what you should probably look for to find a reference for this. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 21:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Now sourced—Chris! ct 23:11, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Now it can be just the {{VIR}} template with the footnote; no need for double nationalities. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 12:56, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think it should show double nationalities because it is clearer. Every other award pages are like that.—Chris! ct 19:21, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Standards change. WP:FLAG states that "If these rules allow a player to represent two or more nations, then the eligibility rule that is most apt should be applied; most often it is the place of birth." In other words, one flag per person. Also, "Where flags are used in a table, it should clearly indicate that the flags represent sporting nationality, not nationality." KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 20:10, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So what should we do? -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! Please reply on my talk page. Thanks. 23:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I will change it.—Chris! ct 23:23, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If Ben Gordon has a dual citizenship with both  United Kingdom and  United States, should we put both or just one? Also, if Patrick Ewing was born in Jamaica, but became a naturalized citizen of the USA before entering the NBA, should we put his born country or the country he was naturalized to when getting that award or honor? -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! Please reply on my talk page. Thanks. 00:03, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
My preference would be that the correct nationalities be linked when they occur. For example, Hakeem Olajuwon is Nigerian. It should be Nigeria until such time in the table as he became a naturalized citizen. At that time, it should be changed, and the first year should have the footnote. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 00:08, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Chrishomingtang told me that we need to use the flags of the nations they were born in. So do we use the nationality that they were when getting the award/honor or do we do what Chrishomingtang said? -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! Please reply on my talk page. Thanks. 00:10, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This is confusing.—Chris! ct 00:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Chris, you said that we need to use the flags of the nations they were born in. on WP:FLAG, it writes most often. -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! Please reply on my talk page. Thanks. 00:12, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
See the "Use of flags for sportspeople" section, where it says "Flags should illustrate the highest level the sportsperson is associated with. For example, if a sportsperson has represented a nation or has declared for a nation, then the national flag as determined by the sport governing body should be used (these can differ from countries' political national flags). If a sportsperson has not played at the international level, then the eligibility rules of the international sport governing body (such as IRB, FIFA, etc.) should be used. If these rules allow a player to represent two or more nations, then the eligibility rule that is most apt should be applied; most often it is the place of birth."—Chris! ct 00:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Crzycheetah 07:14, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The table really should be sortable. Make a note about the 1999 lockout and remove all colspans and rowspans.--Crzycheetah 06:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
But how is Chrishomintang and I supposed to tell the readers that there were ties in three of the years? -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! Please reply on my talk page. Thanks. 06:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The lead states it right now.--Crzycheetah 09:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
DONE! -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! Please reply on my talk page. Thanks. 17:35, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I reverted to the original version mostly because of aesthetic reason. I just don't think we should force the table to be sortable. Also, since some award pages also use colspans, we should keep it consistent.—Chris! ct 18:23, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
FL criterion 4 is "Structure. It is easy to navigate, and includes—where helpful—section headings and table sort facilities." It should be sortable if possible. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 18:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Chrishomingtang, I think we shouls sort this table. As KV5 said, it needs easy navigation. If we don't, I just wasted 30 minutes sorting for no apparent reason. -- K. Annoyomous24 GO LAKERS! Please reply on my talk page. Thanks. 18:45, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the table should be sortable if possible. But since we have colspans and rowspans to show that there are joint winners and the lockout in 1999, sortable table is not possible. Removing colspans and rowspans to force the table to be sortable is not a good idea either as readers might be confused with two 2000 award winners and no 1999 winners in the table. K. Annoyomous24, I am sorry that I wasted your 30 minutes, but I still think the original version is better.—Chris! ct 20:43, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As Crzycheetah explained, those things are explained in the lead, which is why it's perfectly kosher to go back to the sorted version. KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 20:55, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, those things are explained in the lead. But I think the list, especially a featured list, should also express the same things in the table. Is table sort function really that important here? I don't think readers will found the list hard to navigate if the table is unsortable. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Readers, who only look at the table, might be confused by the fact that there were two 2000 award winners and no 1999 winners and have to refer back to the lead for explanation.—Chris! ct 23:00, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Crzycheetah, this portion is originally your review; what do you think? KV5 • Squawk box • Fight on! 23:15, 12 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(→)Chris, you're right! Whenever readers get confused about anything, they can always refer to the lead. That's what the lead is for; it is a place where one finds answers. The sorting helps us find the names we're looking for quicker and see what team is represented the most. I am for the sorting function.--Crzycheetah 08:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, then how do we show co-winners if colspans can't be used?—Chris! ct 04:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The reason I don't want to use the sorting is that other award pages don't have sorting as well due to the use of colspans. Some examples are NBA Rookie of the Year Award and J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award, which also show co-winners.—Chris! ct 17:47, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Colspans are usually used whenever we want to avoid repeating same info over and over. In this case, colspans are not used to indicate co-winners, they are being used just for the purpose of spanning; no more no less. The co-winners are mentioned in the lead, so if there is any confusion, the lead is there to help. As for other award pages, they should be sortable, as well.--Crzycheetah 23:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, I will reluctantly change all of them to sortable tables.—Chris! ct 01:21, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Done —Chris! ct 01:44, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, you're not done. You forgot to link the unlinked on the table. If you want me to do that for you, I'll be happy to. -- K. Annoyomous24 01:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I mean I am done with the sorting. Linking the unlinked is another thing. :) And yes please help me with that. Thanks—Chris! ct 01:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
DONE! -- K. Annoyomous24 02:13, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I really appreciate your patience during this nomination. It's working just fine now. I like the "a" note you added. I don't like those numbers in parentheses, though. I feel like it's trivial info. Overall, another great list of NBA award recipients. --Crzycheetah 07:14, 19 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support from Killervogel5
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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