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Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of teams and cyclists in the 2009 Giro d'Italia/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 18:18, 12 September 2009 [1].

List of teams and cyclists in the 2009 Giro d'Italia edit

Nominator(s): lil2mas (talk) 22:36, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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With the conclusion of the 2009 Giro d'Italia in May, the WP:CYCLING-project have now decided to enhance the article's quality. And coherent to that I decided to try and get our project it's first Featured List. The same outline have been used in multiple lists from other races, so I'm looking forward to hear your comments in order to freshen up the other ones. All comments will be addressed as soon as I can address them, and I look forward to hearing them. lil2mas (talk) 22:36, 27 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • "This list of teams and cyclists in the 2009 Giro d'Italia contains the professional road bicycle racers who competed at the 92nd edition of Giro d'Italia. " FLs don't begin like this; see recently promoted FLs for an example of more engaging starts. Dabomb87 (talk) 00:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Introduction changed, the reason why the intro sounded so lame is because I've always thought that the title of the article/list always had to be included and bolded early in the article/list. I looked at 2008 IIHF World Championship rosters, while enhancing this list, but looking at other FL's, it seems that isn't the case. =) lil2mas (talk) 11:38, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, we (thankfully) removed that requirement more than a year ago, although plenty of FLs still follow that old format. Dabomb87 (talk) 04:33, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

comments

  • In the tables, some cyclists' names are written in bold. At first I confused them for team laders, but they appear to be the top ten of the general classification. I would remove the bold font, or explain it somewhere.
I actually experienced the same when I first started reviewing the article, looked for a legend, didn't find it, but then forgot about it. I have now removed it as it only bolded the top 10 cyclists, which can be found by sorting the table. lil2mas (talk) 14:52, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also: DNS and DNF are explained in the "Cyclists" section, but they are used above that, in the "Teams" section.
Inserted the same note under both sections. =) lil2mas (talk) 14:52, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Good luck in getting the FL!--EdgeNavidad (talk) 13:27, 28 August 2009 (UTC) (member of WP:CYCLING so will not vote)[reply]
Resolved comments from KV5
Comments from KV5

If nothing else, this list certainly meets the comprehensiveness criterion!

  • "but it marked 100 years since the first race were held in 1909" - You don't need "but" here, change the preceding comma to a semicolon and remove. Also, first race was held.
  • "with 30 different nationalities" - from 30 countries
  • "and started in Venice on 9 May and finished in Rome on 31 May." - starting in Venice... and finishing in Rome...
  • "15 were ProTour teams, and seven were Professional Continental teams" - per MOS:NUM, comparable quantities should be the same, so "fifteen" or "7" (not both).
  • "Three ProTour teams chose not to participate;" - semicolon should be colon
  • "while Fuji-Servetto was not invited.[4]" - You explain that they are were invited later right away, so this can be removed.
  • "twenty-second" - 22nd
  • All team names with hyphens, since they show disjunction between sponsor names, should use en-dashes instead of hyphens. The team articles should actually be moved to correspond with this change. For teams where there are spaces within one of the sponsor names (e.g., "Acqua & Sapone-Caffè Mokambo") the en-dash should actually be spaced as well (Acqua & Sapone – Caffè Mokambo).
  • "All 22 teams invited to the race each entered a team of nine riders, which meant that 198 riders were present at the start in Lido di Venezia." - you already stated that there were 198 riders, so the sentence can end after "nine riders".
  • "Of the 198 starters, there were oOnly 29 riders"
  • No hyphens between sponsor name and team (for example, "Rabobank-team" should be Rabobank team). Check the whole lead, this happens several times.
  • "and marked closely any attacks by his closest challenger and second-place finisher" - this wording doesn't make any sense to me. I would suggest a reword but I don't know what you are trying to say here.
    • It means Menchov followed Di Luca when he tried to attack on a mountain climb, or tried to set a pace such that Menchov would have a hard time keeping up. "Marked" is kind of jargon-y, I get that. Basically, it just means he didn't let Di Luca out of his sight. Nosleep break my slumber 18:48, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I simplified the sentence, to how you explained it. lil2mas (talk) 01:04, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On 22 July however, it was announced" - remove however, change to "It was announced on 22 July"
  • What's an A-sample? I know, but others might not. For that matter, what's a B-sample? Same thing.
    • After each stage, the stage winner, the race leader, and a certain number of riders chosen at random give urine samples to the anti-doping authorities to be tested. They leave two, because of the theoretical possibility of a lab error giving a false positive. The distinction between A-sample and B-sample is to my knowledge synthetic - it's simply which is tested first. In practice, the B-sample never fails to confirm initial findings. This seems like a wordy explanation, so I'm not sure how to revise the article. Nosleep break my slumber 18:48, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm aware of what the A- and B-samples are for, but if there's no wikilink to explain it, the explanation you gave me should be referenced and added into the article. If there needs to be a separate paragraph about doping to explain this and to talk about the failed tests, so be it. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 19:05, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The mountains classification were won" - was won
  • "the young rider classification were won" - was won
  • The lead image is much too large. MOS proscribes a maximum size of 300px for a lead image.
  • In the "Teams" section, the time trial jerseys are explained, but there needs to be a key explaining the meaning of the pink and green jerseys. I would also rather see the italicized notes put into a tabular key rather than prose.
    • I made a legend containing the information needed. lil2mas (talk) 01:04, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • A second key is needed for the "Cyclists" section as well, rather than an italicized note.
  • The dagger (†) next to a number looks crowded. I suggest superscripting the daggers to make readability easier.
  • I would really like to see the "DNF" numbers linked to the corresponding section of the articles about the stages (for example, DNF-20 would be pipelinked to 2009 Giro d'Italia, Stage 12 to Stage 21#Stage 20. It provides a lot of context for an unfamiliar reader.
  • Remove all bold from the reference section (Cyclingnews.com, etc.).

Hope these comments help. KV5 (Talk • Phils) 16:52, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Addressed many of these concerns. Nosleep break my slumber 18:48, 28 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Addressed the rest of your comments. lil2mas (talk) 01:04, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Additional comment from KV5

There is an awful lot of overlinking in the lead. The use of the template is the issue here. After the first use for each team, add the

Support. A hearty thanks to the members of WP:CYCLING who put in hard work on what appears to be a great article! If this is truly the project's first FL, I wish you many more. Cheers! KV5 (Talk • Phils) 23:42, 29 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Giants2008 (17–14) 00:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • "Amongst" → "Among". Less wordy that way.
Done. lil2mas (talk) 23:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Fuji–Servetto, on the other hand, was simply declined an invitation at first, though on 23 April, they were invited...". Conflict between singular and plural phrasing with both "was" and "they were".
Done. lil2mas (talk) 23:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Denis Menchov of the Rabobank team won the race, having taken the lead...". Semi-colon before "having"? The sentence is a long, winding one without it.
Done. lil2mas (talk) 23:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • De-capitalize General? Or is that normally used in cycling?
Done. lil2mas (talk) 23:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Table: Angel Gomez is sorting below the Ys.
This requires a sorting template, {{sortname}}, which I thought was already implemented here, but I mixed it together with the Tour de France list. It requires some work, so I will start on that tomorrow. I appreciate if someone would help me implement it on some riders. =) lil2mas (talk) 23:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I finished sortname on all the names.--EdgeNavidad (talk) 08:07, 31 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Shouldn't have reference titles with all caps.
Done. lil2mas (talk) 23:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Two images require alt text; please check the appropriate link in the toolbox on the FLC page.
Done. lil2mas (talk) 23:10, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Giants2008 (17–14) 20:23, 30 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support – My comments have all been addressed, and FL criteria appears met. Giants2008 (17–14) 00:22, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk)
Comments from Dabomb87 (talk · contribs)
  • "The 2009 Giro d'Italia was the 92nd edition of Giro d'Italia" Why is there a link to the 2009 Giro d'Italia, and then the general article about it? Remove the general link, since readers can easily access it through a couple clicks.
Removed link. lil2mas (talk) 23:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "second-place finisher Danilo Di Luca of LPR Brakes–Farnese Vini out of his sight during the mountain stages of the last week" Unclear to someone who doesn't understand cycling; what does "out of his sight" mean here?
The sentence has already been rewritten once after comments from KV5, tried to rewrite it more. If it's not good enough, please suggest how it should be written. lil2mas (talk) 23:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Menchov, who finished second in those standings" "those" is ambiguous here; please clarify.
I could've replaced it with "points", but then the sentence looks poorly written, so I wikilinked it to the Points classification. lil2mas (talk) 23:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not clear what "Pos." refers to; mention it in the legend (also put "No." in the legend).
Done. lil2mas (talk) 23:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dabomb87 (talk) 23:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good. Dabomb87 (talk) 23:07, 4 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. Alt text is done; thanks. Alt text looks fairly good (thanks!) but I spotted two problems:

  • The first four small jersey icons, in the legend at the start of the Teams section, are missing alt text.
Added alt text. lil2mas (talk) 23:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Mostly good. One thing left: some of the alt texts for the jerseys don't actually describe the jersey. For example, "Konovalovas wore the Lithuanian time trial champion jersey during time trials" should be something like "A yellow-, red-, and green-striped jersey". Dabomb87 (talk) 23:45, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, alt text completed. lil2mas (talk) 00:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The alt text for the map doesn't convey the gist of the image to the visually impaired reader. Please add a brief summary of the gist, e.g., "The U.S., France, Spain, Italy, and Russia had more than ten riders each, and riders in smaller numbers came from other countries, mostly in western Europe, but also in South America, Canada, Australia, and South Africa."
Okay, summary added. lil2mas (talk) 23:12, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Eubulides (talk) 01:54, 6 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for doing all that; looks good. Eubulides (talk) 06:21, 10 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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