Wikipedia:Featured article review/El Lissitzky/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was delisted by Nikkimaria via FACBot (talk) 3:42, 8 July 2023 (UTC) [1].

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El Lissitzky

Notified: all wikiprojects, plus relevant editors,[2] talk page notice May 22, 2022

Review section

I am nominating this featured article for review because uncited text and other issues identified by Extraordinary Writ have not been addressed (t · c) buidhe 05:38, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Hey, I will take a look in a week or so. I have several good sources, so this hopefully shouldn't be the problem. Will be updating here, though please do not expect a fast resolution of all issues, I'm really busy in RL now. (I made only few minor edits to the article before, so if someone who done more work is willing to do it, you are certainly welcome!) Artem.G (talk) 12:47, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

Sourcing here is probably the worst I saw in any FA! Half are not reliable (at least by my standards), half is too old, almost nothing available online. Will try to find newer sources, will take longer than I expected. Besides, a lot of sections need expansion and ce. Artem.G (talk) 19:15, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Artem.G you haven't edited this since 7 August; shall we proceed to FARC? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:52, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm working on an overhaul in my sandbox, will update the article in the next couple of weeks. Artem.G (talk) 13:13, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Update: got two important lengthy sources through Resource Request, work is ongoing. I'm also planning to ask somebody knowledgeable in arts to look through the article after the rewrite, as it is generally not my topic. Artem.G (talk) 14:32, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Artem.G, could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:21, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Still working on it. I got really busy irl, but expect to return to it in a week or two. Turned out I greatly underestimate how much should be reworked. Artem.G (talk) 08:08, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

• Move to FARC: work seems to have stalled (last edit was early September, and the last significant progress was in August) and there are still uncited passages throughout. This move does not prevent a later "Keep" declaration, nor prevent further work from continuing in the article. Z1720 (talk) 17:12, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

  Move to FARC per above. (t · c) buidhe 17:19, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

• Artem.G seems to still be making plenty of progress in his sandbox, so I don't think it'll hurt if we hold in FAR for a bit longer. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 17:28, 14 October 2022 (UTC)

Yeah, the work is still in progress. I also asked Aza24 for help on further copyediting as they are much more experienced in FA than I am; hope to show the final draft to maybe few more people after completion. Artem.G (talk) 09:09, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Comments from Aza

Some comments on User:Artem.G/sandbox3

Thanks a lot!

• Kamczycki 2003 & Druker & Kümmerling-Meibauer 2005 refs are broken
  • Will fix later today or tomorrow.
• Infobox needs some works; he's known for his art, not specifically being a part of those two groups, right?
  • I didn't work on the infobox yet, was thinking to update it and the lead after the draft is finished.
• I still don't find most of the quotes necessary, I think they can mostly be summed up in prose, particularly the early years quote, which seems undue
  • I think it can be reduced - will move part of it to note.
• More soon. Aza24 (talk) 03:04, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
• The family quote is interesting but seems out of place and too specific for a general overview WP article. Aza24 (talk) 03:18, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
• I would remove the family quote (possibly put it in a note?) and then combine the first and second paragraphs of early life. Aza24 (talk) 03:20, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Will move it to note as I think that the quote is useful - it shows how his family was both religious (his mother) and secular (his father, who travelled to the US and translated Shakespeare), and how (probably) it affected Lissitzky. This quote is also used in many sources on Lissitzky, so it seems that many researchers find it important.
• Is the "He also worked as a bricklayer..." line saying that he made drawings of the interior and decorations of Jewish historical sites in general, or the Worms Synagogue specifically? Aza24 (talk) 03:25, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
  • Worms synagogue is mentioned in all sources, so.e mention it among other unnamed Jewish historical sites. Artem.G (talk) 07:27, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Status, work ongoing in sandbox. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:51, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Work ongoing in sandbox. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:17, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:00, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

  I'm looking through for the sandbox draft and will provide some comments. After which, we should be good to move Artem's new content to the mainspace and work from there. Aza24 (talk) 01:00, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! Artem.G (talk) 15:56, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Comments on finalized draft

• Starting to read through—I'm not sure that any of the Japanese influence is connected directly with Lissitzky to warrant inclusion. Aza24 (talk) 01:02, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

The idea was to show that Lissitzky influenced not only Soviet and European artists, but also people much farther from Berlin and Moscow. One of the Mavo's members created works called "Proun D" and "Construction F", Lissitzky also sent Merz to Murayama Tomoyoshi. The paragraph can be trimmed, though I think the influence is direct - naming the work "Proun" in 1920s, for example. Artem.G (talk) 15:56, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Early years

• If you're not going to include "22/23" in the lead for his birthdate, it should probably just be 23 in the prose and the note explains the discrepancy.

done

• Anything you could link "trade agent" to?

I can think only of merchant or Merchant guild (Russian Empire), but I saw nowhere that he was a member of the guild.

• Since it's a quote, the "earned extra money" line needs a ref right next to, even if its the same as Kantsedikas 2017, pp. 15–16

done

• The last paragraph of Early years could use some work to sound less robotic ("In [year]... In [year]... etc)

kinda done

Jewish period

• Shouldn't the "Lissitzky spent a lot of time" paragraph be built into the early years section? and indeed the next paragraph as well

it can be done, but I was trying to show here that Lissitzky's Jewish roots can be traced to his childhood and youth, so it seemed logical to place it here. If you think it'll be better to move it to Early years, I'll move it.

• I feel that Perloff doesn't need to be directly quoted and that information can be rephrased and sourced normally

half-done. moved the Pale out of quote, preserve Perloff's quote on Pale's influence on Lissitzky

• I assume "fix on photo" means document? I've changed it to such

thanks!

• I don't think the large caption quote for the mural is warranted, there's already enough quoted material in the corresponding prose

moved to note

• All the description on the yingl story (i.e. the info about the story specifically, unrelated to Lissitzky) does not seem warranted

trimed, quote removed, part of the description moved to note.

• More soon—by the way, I'm thinking the Scholarly assessment and legacy sections should end up being combined (and less quotes there!) Aza24 (talk) 04:05, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! I've got covid again, and will address all the comments later. (I may occasionally revert some vandalism, but wouldn't be very active for a week or so.) Artem.G (talk) 20:15, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Once again, thanks a lot for great comments, Aza24! I'm back, and will try to finish the Lissitzky rewrite in a reasonable time - it took to much of my time and energy, but after a break I think I can proceed for a while :) I tried to address all your points, please let me know what do you think. Artem.G (talk) 16:56, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Looking better for sure, I'll try to read more this week. Aza24 (talk) 23:41, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

• Could we get an update on status here? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:17, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

• Somehow missed the message - I took a pause in that rewrite, but will continue the work. Aza is not very active now, but once they'll be back I'll be happy to work together. Artem.G (talk) 06:31, 5 February 2023 (UTC)

• Aza24, are you still intending to revisit this? Nikkimaria (talk) 20:50, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

• Move to FARC, which does not preclude further improvements, but to stay on track. There has been no engagement at the article since 12 January, and no response on this page for two weeks. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:22, 19 February 2023 (UTC)

FARC section

Issues raised in the review section include sourcing and coverage. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:01, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

• The sandbox version is 100kB larger than the article and better sourced. Why can't we move it across? DrKay (talk) 09:47, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

I had a break from working on it, and Aza started to review the new version, but is probably too busy irl. If you think it looks good, I'll reread it once again and move to mainspace. And it's certainly better sourced, I got all but two sources of those that are used in the article, and it's basically a completely new text, not an updated and copyedited one. Artem.G (talk) 14:21, 12 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't think I'll be able to get back to this, being too distracted IRL and with other WP things. But I fully support the new text if the amount of quotations are lessened. Aza24 (talk) 22:02, 13 March 2023 (UTC)

Buidhe we need followup here; where does this (your nom) stand? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:38, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

oh, well, I got too tired on that article and abandoned it for some time. I received some books now, and will update the draft when I'll have enough time to sit and read them, but I think that it is mostly ready, though require some trimming. You can proceed with FARC if you want, because I'm not willing to commit to any deadline, but I'll eventually update and publish the draft. Artem.G (talk) 18:04, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Artem.G there is no need to hurry to FARC; I just want nominators to keep the rest of us posted so we know when to enter a declaration, and so the Coords don't have to continually ping for updates. Take the time you need! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:04, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

The issues with uncited text have still not been fixed. (t · c) buidhe 22:40, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

• Delist The last serious edit to this article was February, and uncited text still remains. I think it is time to let this go. Z1720 (talk) 02:22, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

  Delist same, we're edging up on 1 year here. (t · c) buidhe 02:48, 2 July 2023 (UTC)

• Closing note: This removal candidate has been delisted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please leave the {{featured article review}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:42, 8 July 2023 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.