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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Battle (boxing)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Raul654 10:55, 9 March 2009 [1].

The Battle (boxing) edit

Nominator(s): Showtime2009 (talk)

I am nominating this for featured article because it is a wonderfully written and illustrated article on one of the most significant boxing matches of 2008. Showtime2009 (talk) 05:09, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from ChrisTheDude (talk · contribs)

I don't follow boxing and know little about the ins and outs of the sport, but the article seems to cover everything that it should. There are some issues I picked up, though:

  • "resulted in a eleventh round technical knockout victory for Antonio Margarito" - no need to use his full name, as he was only introduced in the previous sentence. Just use his surname here
Done.
  • Lead: "Both Cotto and Margarito's victories on April 12" - this seems to pre-suppose that readers know both men fought on that date. Maybe try something like "Both men had previously fought on April 12 and emerged victorious, thus clearing the way....."
Changed the sentence to your suggestion.
  • The full quotations in the lead seem a bit excessive, maybe just state that multiple commentators praised the bout
Done
  • wikilink "mandatory contender", non-boxing fans probably won't know what this term means
Since there is no wikipedia page on this, I've decided to add a sentence that states what a mandatory challenger is.
  • "former three–division champion" - use a hyphen here, not an ndash
Done
  • Danny Perez is not wikilinked - is he not notable?
There is no wikipedia page for him.
  • "en route to a technical knockout victory in the fifth round at Caesar's Palace in Las Vegas" - full stop missing from the end of this sentence
Sorry, forgot a period.
  • Talking of full stops, there are a number of places where a sentence ends with a quotation and the full stop is placed inside the quote marks - it should be placed outside
Done
  • "After Floyd Mayweather, Jr. defeated Zab Judah on April 8, 2006, He rejected" - no need for capital on "he"
Fixed
  • "both Cotto and Margarito both" - stutter :-)
Fixed
  • "and the fight took place at the MGM Grand" - it seems strange to list this as the very last fact about the fight, giving it almost the feel of an afterthought. I'd have thought the venue where it took place is one of the most important things about a fight, so it should be mentioned more prominently
I agree and I moved it up in the section.
  • "Cotto picked up in the second round where he left off" => "Cotto picked up where he left off in the second round"
Fixed
  • "...but was able to avoid further trouble" - the subject of this sentence is "a left hook" so as it stands it is gramatically incorrect. Change to "but he was able to avoid further trouble"
Fixed
  • The very last two sentences both start "On February xx 2008" - vary the language bit more
I put the february 10 date in the middle of the first sentence. Showtime2009 (talk) 15:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Overall, a very good article, but with quite a few very minor niggles that need sorting out -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - This is the first fight that I've seen at FAC. It's always good to have a unique article come here, but rough edges usually need to be smoothed out when that happens, and there's no exception here. Here are some specific suggestions:

  • First, date links were deprecated a while back, and the Manual of Style discourages their use.
Fixed
  • The poster needs a better fair-use rationale than "To use an image at the top right section of the article." My advice is to look at a wrestling featured article that uses a poster and see what it says.
I read some of the WWE posters and essentially wrote information similar to them.
  • Any chance the photo in Margarito's article could be used somewhere here?
I wasn't aware there was a photo for his article, so I've included it in his part of the Background section.
  • Change the en dashes in the pre-and post-fight headers to plain hyphens.
Done
  • The box by Pre-fight information interests me. Has anyone from the boxing project thought about using that as an infobox? That's not really relevant here, but that's something to consider for the future. In that box, use en dashes in the fighters' records.
Done
  • "It was Cotto's first fight in Las Vegas since December 2004, According to promoter Bob Arum". Change the comma to a period
Fixed
  • Consider hyphens for "third best" and "third highest" in the third paragraph.
Fixed

I'll review more of the prose at a later time. Giants2008 (17-14) 18:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed
  • Miguel Cotto: "If the champion decides not to defend the title against the mandatory challenger, then the boxing organization strips him of his title." The struck word isn't needed.
Done
  • "eventually to the point where Urkal's corner retired after throwing in the towel in the eleventh round." I'm sure the fighter retired after his corner threw in the towel, so this sentence could be improved.
I removed after throwing in the towel
  • "in front of a sellout crowd of 20,658." It's not great to end a sentence with a number; see if this can be tweaked.
Changed sentence to In front of a sellout crowd of 20,658, Cotto defeated Judah by technical knockout in the eleventh round.
  • "the media speculated that the winner of the two fights would likely fight each other next." Check to see if "winner" should be made plural.
Yes it is plural
  • "With the match taking place...". This is a noun plus -ing sentence structure, a difficult-to-find prose error. For more, including information on fixing it, see this.
Fixed
  • Antonio Margarito: A bunch of sentences in the section's first paragraph start with Margarito. See if you can change a couple to offer readers more variety. That would make the prose more compelling.
changed some of the sentences that started with his name to simply he or his
  • "After the fight, Margarito discussed interest in a major fight with Oscar De La Hoya, Shane Mosley, or Fernando Vargas." The word "his" seems to be missing.
added his between discussed and interest
  • The second sentence of the section's second paragraph feels like a run-on sentence. I would chop it in two after "unintentional headbutt in round six". Also consider linking headbutt to help those who aren't boxing fans and may not know what it means.
  • "Margarito overwhelmed the less experienced Cintron". Can we cut down on the hyperbole a little bit, please? Even if it isn't exaggerated, it feels like it.
Changed sentence to Margarito defeated the less experienced Cintron...
  • "on February 18, 2006, in which he defeated...". in which→when.
Fixed
  • The $8 million figure needs a non-breaking space, like the one I provided here (click edit page to see it). While I'm on the topic of money, are there reliable sources that say how much Cotto and Margarito made for this bout? That's always a topic of interest when big fights are in the planning stages.
  • "citing a hand injury for the reason on not taking the bout." I recommend a change to "citing a hand injury as the reason he did not take the bout."
Changed
  • Why is Autumn capitalized and linked?
Sorry, it should not have been. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:34, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Dabs
  • Need to be fixed, as found with the dabs checker tool in the toolbox.
Fixed Showtime2009 (talk) 16:49, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
...are found up speed.--₮RUCӨ 23:11, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Ref formatting
External links
  • Are found up to speed using the links checker tool.--₮RUCӨ 21:50, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comments -

Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:27, 5 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Three of the websites (sweet science, boxing scene and fight news) were listed by the Daily Telegraph in a article titled "Top-ten boxing websites" Doghouse boxing is a boxing website with a collection of interviews of numerous boxers and several articles can be read on the front page. www.f4wonline.com is primarily a wrestling website owned by Figure Four Weekly Online, LLC, it has an archive for past articles and interviews and they also issue their own newsletters. Showtime2009 (talk) 14:05, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To determine the reliablity of the site, we need to know what sort of fact checking they do. You can establish this by showing news articles that say the site is reliable/noteworthy/etc. or you can show a page on the site that gives their rules for submissions/etc. or you can show they are backed by a media company/university/institute, or you can show that the website gives its sources and methods, or there are some other ways that would work too. It's their reputation for reliabilty that needs to be demonstrated. Please see Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-06-26/Dispatches for further detailed information. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Here is information on how and what information the sources in question collect and how they get it.
The Sweet Science [2]
BoxingScene.com [3]
DoghouseBoxing Information from this source has been reported on ABS-CBN Broadcasting Corporation [4] and Sun.Star [5].
f4wonline.com [6]
Fightnews.com information from this source has been reported on The Vindicator, [7] Augusta Chronicle, [8] and The Monitor (Uganda) [9].

Strong oppose - I left comments above, but those are not my main concern at this point. I'm worried about plagarism from this source, which recaps the fight. Here are a few examples:

  • "Margarito kept targeting the body, but drew two seperate warnings for low blows in the span of less than a minute." Copied word-for-word from the source.
  • "A left hook to the body had Cotto on the defensive early in the seventh round". Copied word-for-word except for the addition of "round".
  • "Cotto picked up where he left off in the second round, coming straight at Margarito while easily getting out of harm's way when Margarito attempted to counter. That dynamic changed about a minute into the round, when Margarito landed a right hand that momentarily had Cotto along the ropes." Some copying, and the structure is clearly lifted from the source.

There are other cases where the sentence structure feels too similar to the reference. Plagarising a questionable source is not an indication of our best work, and should never be done, period (the plagarism part, that is, though I'm not fond of bad sources). I refuse to look at any more until the entire section is rewritten, and the rest of the article is checked against the references. Not sure if this can be done while the article is at FAC, but it's for the best. Giants2008 (17-14) 02:52, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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