Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Teriitaria II/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 19 January 2020 [1].

Teriitaria II edit

Nominator(s): KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:13, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this article for FAC review because this is an extremely influential figure in French Polynesian history. She defeated a French invasion force in the Franco-Tahitian War and indirectly secured the independence of the Leeward Islands and the French protectorate of Tahiti (instead of outright annexation) for four decades after her victory. KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:13, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Векочел edit

As the reviewer for the GAN of this article, I can say it is a very good article. It is well-sourced and well-written. I am giving my support. Векочел (talk) 04:18, 2 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Question on sourcing: This is not a full source review but I notice that several of the sources used for this article are VERY old. This always raises a concern in a FAC. Could I ask the nominator why we need to rely on sources from the 19th century, with one as old as 1817? How can we guarantee that such sources meet the standards of modern scholarship? How are they used by modern scholars? I also notice a PhD thesis from 1956; what makes this reliable? Are there no modern sources on Teriitaria? If not, have we consulted any overview sources from this period to ensure that modern scholarly consensus still matches the views held in the old sources? I am not questioning the sourcing as such, but I think reviewers may appreciate some reassurance on these points. Sarastro (talk) 12:54, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Sarastro1: The 1817 source is a primary source used to cite the term "My wife Tarutaria" by Pomare II not much else. I often cite modern source and primary source side by side like for example Ellis (a good 19th-century source is usually accompanied by a 20th-century source); the primary sources are good places to dig for quotes. Colin Newbury seems to be the English language authority on the subject; his 1956 thesis contains material on the political situation of the islands especially in the 1850s not found in any other sources. Newbury's 1980 Tahiti Nui was the best overview of the period out there. A good chunk of the article is cited to Teissier 1978, Matsuda 2005, Newbury 1980, just some examples, not from 19th-century sources. I don't think that much have come out about Teriitaria besides one or two sentences in sources since the 1980s with Newbury's Tahiti Nui. I don't know what your definition of recent is. But basically if I want to use only recent sources within the last two decades—examples of Kirk 2012 only referring to the Battle of Maeva—this article would be a superficial read. KAVEBEAR (talk) 13:21, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. I'll try to have a read through later. Sarastro (talk) 13:40, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Sarastro edit

~~Leaning Oppose~~ Comments: I've read the "Birth and Family" section. Sourcing seems fine, but I'm not sure we have quite got this section right. I picked up quite a few little issues and things that require clarification. I would expect these to have been ironed out before FAC and if this section of representative of the whole article, I think I would oppose. I would recommend getting an independent copy-editor to look at this. I'll let the nominator respond first, but I think if I found another section with similar issues, I would switch to a full oppose. Sarastro (talk) 16:54, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I did some spot-checks on "Birth and Family", and everything checked out. I will do a few more if I go through, but I don't foresee any issues on this. Further to my comment above, all these sources are very high quality, so I have no further concerns on that.
"...while her mother" does not quite work as well as it could. This may be simpler as "and her mother".

Changed.

I wonder do we have the sequence quite correct here? We talk about her birth and then her family's background. I wonder would it make more sense to give the background to her family losing their power, and then going on to her birth?

Changed.

It would also be useful at this point to say where she was born.

I think this is just a guess on my part. We have no idea where she was born. It could have been Raiatea or Huahine since the Tamatoa dynasty lost secular power between Puni’s conquest and Tamatoa III’s reconquest in the 1800s.

"While still retaining their esteem because of their rank..." Could we be more specific about what this means? It is vague to the point of being almost meaningless as it stands.

So this comes from James King (Royal Navy officer): "Ooroo, the dethroned monarch of Ulietea, was still alive when we were at Huaheine, where he resides a royal wanderer, furnishing, in his person, an instance of the instability of power ; but what is more remarkable, of the respect paid by these people to particular families, and to the customs which have once conferred sovereign ; for they suffer Ooroo to preserve all the ensigns which they appropriate to majesty, though he has lost his dominions." Would it be beneficial to include it?

Yes, I think it would help. Sarastro (talk) 11:31, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"she held special status since traditional titles were passed down by the first-born daughters in the Tahitian social organization as a matrilineality": What special status? What traditional titles? Again, this is rather vague. I also wonder should this be "passed down through the first-born daughters"? It also may make the sentence flow a little better if we maybe moved "as a matrilineality"; maybe something like "... special status as Tahitian society was organised as a matrilineality and therefore traditional titles..."

Changed.

The fourth paragraph, that starts "In the Tahitian language..." is a little strangely constructed. "In the Tahitian language, Teri'i is a contraction of Te Ari'i, meaning the "sovereign" or "chief." looks like it's just tacked onto the front, when it should be in the middle of the paragraph. The next sentence, "Tahitian names were rooted in land and titles" would perhaps make more sense as the opening of the paragraph. It is also unclear why she adopted other names.

Changed. She adopted the name and title of Pomare Vahine because of her marriage. Ariipaea Vahine, I'm not sure of why. There is no source to state she married Manaonao or Paiti (the regent before her). Ariipaea or Ariipaea Vahine is also a common title carried by Pomare I's aunt and brother, and then a collateral descendant of Pomare I after Teriitaria II's death into the 1900s. There is probably some territorial association with the northwestern districts of Arue-Pare.

"It was connected through marriage and adoption with the hereditary chiefs of the other Society Islands": Doesn't seem quite right. Would it not be better as "...connected by marriage and adoption to the hereditary chiefs"?

Changed.

Finally, as someone who knows nothing about Tahiti, or this period of history, perhaps a few sentences to set the scene a little more? I've no idea of what a Ariʻi rahi would do, or how far their power or influence went. Perhaps a word or two on this, and a word or two on how long her family had ruled? Sarastro (talk) 16:54, 15 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Added "The ariʻi class were the ruling caste of Tahitian society with both secular and religious powers over the common people." — The more complicated answer is that it varied between who is in charge and who is not in charged, same as the Prince of Salm-Salm may not have the same power as the Prince of Wales. The question of how long her family rule is not one I can answer or is found in the sources. If you based it on Teuira Henry, it would be from time immemorial based on her genealogy of the family.
@Sarastro1: Thanks. ~~I will address these comments one by one.~~ I addressed each one. Look over again, please. KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:39, 18 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, this looks to be an improvement, but now we say that "the islands of Raiatea and Tahaa were conquered by the warrior chief Puni of Faanui on Bora Bora" without saying who they conquered it from. I'm assuming they took over from the Tamatoa family, but we don't say so. I'm also not certain that "The ariʻi class were the ruling caste of Tahitian society with both secular and religious powers over the common people" is in the right place; would it make more sense at the very beginning? Sarastro (talk) 11:31, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: I've looked at the next section, and I'm still seeing issues. These aren't huge issues, but they are not ones I would expect to be seeing at this stage. I believe that a thorough copy-edit may be needed to bring the prose up to scratch (1a). There are also things that I believe require more explanation for this to be comprehensive (1b). If I continue going through the article, I think we'll just end up with a huge laundry list of items, which is wearing for everyone concerned. And I'm not sure I have the time to do the complete copy-edit that I believe this article requires. I've left some comments for the "Marriage to Pōmare II" section, but I'm going to stop there and I'm afraid I'm moving to a full oppose. I like this article, and I think it will make an excellent FA, but I don't think it's there yet. I would recommend that the nominator withdraws this, and works with a good copy-editor away from FAC. I'd be happy to take another look when this has been done and before it is renominated at FAC. Sarastro (talk) 11:57, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do we need to say a little more about who Pōmare was? He just appears without much introduction.
"His successor Pōmare II saw this legacy unravel because of internal rivalries between the Pōmare regime and other chiefly families and the fear of foreign influence on the traditional Tahitian religion.": What legacy? If he accepted the missionaries, but did not convert, and apparently tolerated rather than supported them, it's not really his legacy. And "unravel" is somewhat vague. Also, "saw" in this sense is usually a bit awkward. Maybe something more along the lines of "Under his successor Pōmare II, the missionaries were evicted by the district chiefs of Tahiti because..."
"It is said that the ship bearing Teriitaria landed on Moorea a little after the one bearing Teriʻitoʻoterai Teremoemoe and that Pomare fell in love with Teriitaria's younger sister." Hmm... it's either a fact, in which case we can lose "it is said", or we need to give the source of the story. The transition from his mother deciding that they needed a marriage alliance to Teriitaria arriving by ship is a little abrupt. Is there nothing more to say about how this came about?
"Unable to reject the older sister for fear of a casus belli (an act to justify war) with Tamatoa III": Why do we need the Latin?
"he married both sisters around 1809": Was this usual/acceptable?
"Sometimes the marriage is dated to around 8 November 1811": Why the discrepancy? Is it important? Having "around" with such a specific date reads a little oddly. It needs either "around November 1811" or to remove the equivocation. Also, "sometimes" here does not work. It may be better along the lines "Some historians/sources/authorities date the marriage to 8 November 1811/around November 1811".
"Pōmare II preferred her younger sister": Have we not already established this? If we need to spell it out, it should be moved back to the story of her arrival.
"and how Teriitaria remained on Huahine and was not brought over to Tahiti and Moorea until 1814–1815": But... haven't we said she arrived with her sister? And how were they married if she wasn't there? And this sentence is once more repeating the fact that he preferred her sister.
"During the absence of the miss. who had gone to the Colony king Pomare had been married to Terito second daughter of Tamatoa chief of Raiatea": What is "miss." here? Do we even need the quote as we have summarised it, and it is kind of saying what we've already said. Sarastro (talk) 11:57, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Given the oppose, I’m not going to continue with improvements for now. I did request copy-editing from the Guild of Copy Editors but that has not been enough. A lot of these comments are just too nitpicking at the moment. KAVEBEAR (talk) 14:02, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note edit

Based on the continuing identification of issues noted above and the recommendation to withdraw the nom, I'm going to archive this and ask that improvements take place outside the FAC process before considering another try after the usual two-week waiting period. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:11, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been archived, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 13:12, 19 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.