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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Skye/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 13:48, 13 January 2013 [1].

Skye edit

Skye (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Ben MacDui 10:41, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Well I just got in from the Isle of Skye
I'm not very big and I'm awfully shy
The ladies shout as I go by
Donald Where's Your Troosers?"
Or, if you prefer: This Scottish island article has been a GA since 2008, was peer reviewed the following year by the ubiquitous stirring flea, and is belatedly presented as an FAC. My thanks to Michael Glass for a recent copy edit and to Akerbeltz for assistance with Gaelic-related matters. Ben MacDui 10:41, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Nice article. Meets comprehensiveness, in my opinion. Needs some work on the prose, as a few minor infelicities caught my eye. What's going on with the formatting of the Geography section? Huge white space on my (Firefox, large monitor) setup. Fuller review to follow. --John (talk) 12:23, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your quick response. White space - I have Firefox 17 for Mac and I don't see it on narrow or wide displays. Do you have the "Pronunciation" infobox on "show"? Ben MacDui 12:51, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm using FF17 for Windows on 1650x1050 and I see a large and quite odd-looking whitespace with the "Pronunciation" infobox on "hide". Is this the problem? Does it need to be so big? --John (talk) 13:01, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have moved the "Pronunciation" infobox so that it is next to the "Overview of population trends" for now. This may fix this problem - or compound the existing ones! Its size is simply a function of the Gaelic words in the article, but it could be cut down if need be. I think 'Mac Na Mara' is fairly close to the English, for example. Ben MacDui 14:43, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Now has a horizontal population table and the pronunciation box is moved to the Gaelic sub-section. Please let me know if there are still problems. Ben MacDui 20:05, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments: Great subject. Just to ask why the tables in "Overview of population trends" are under one another, and why there is a split at all between 1755-1931 and then 1955-2001? If there is a specific reason for this, could it be explained in a note?
Another point; the "History" section doesn't feel entirely comprehensive because it stops after the 1880s. I can't find any mention of the new road bridge that the lede introduces. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 13:25, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"Overview of population trends" - this is split only to allow the tables to be floating left and centre i.e. side by side, which is how they appear on my browsers (including the printable version). An anon IP amended the tables so that they were one long one a few weeks ago, so it may be that you are not alone. I don't know why this should be and I will have to look into it.
History. Post the table it did mention WW1, but I have added a sentence about the trad. county and the years of 20th century decline. I can expand a little on this too if you prefer - it's largely a story of neglect and decay.
The Skye Bridge is referred to in the transport section - it wasn't opened until 1995. Ben MacDui 14:29, 27 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Now has a horizontal population table and the pronunciation box is moved to the Gaelic sub-section. Please let me know if there are still problems. Ben MacDui 20:05, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • "After this rebellion the clan system was broken up and Skye became a series of landed estates." - source?
With some exceptions this is what happened throughout the entire Highlands and Islands, so it's not Skye specific. There is a short overview here and I have added a Jim Hunter ref.
  • "Even if this estimate is inexact the population of the island's largest settlement has probably increased sixfold since then. During the period the total number of island residents has declined by 50 per cent or more" - it's unclear whether this is meant to be supported by Note 4, or whether another citation is needed
The info re the current population of Portree appeared in the "towns" sub-section and the change in island population in the table immediately above these remarks. I've added two "ref name=" citations to this para here.
  • "There are about a dozen large landowners on Skye, the largest again being the public sector, the Department of Agriculture owning most of the northern part of the island." - source?
It can be surprisingly difficult to obtain exact information, but Andy Wightman's database is now added as a ref. It isn't clear which of the Scottish Government directorates is in charge, but according to Issie MacPhail (added as ref) ownership was transferred from the Dept of Agric to SEERAD and probably thence to the Environment Directorates and then to the Enterprise, Environment and Digital Directorates, but without phoning a civil servant and asking it's hard to be sure. I changed it to "Scottish Government", which is a little vague, but sourced.
  • Ranges should consistently use endashes
I can't disagree, and done, (although come the Revolution I may change them back, just for fun). :)
  • FN5 should be endash not hyphen, check for others
No comprende. Assuming this is General Register Office for Scotland, then this is the title of the report as supplied by SG. We need to amend official titles?
Others are "Pràban - The Home of fine Scottish Whisky", "Mylo - Biography" and The Highlands and Islands - a Royal Tour, all likewise.
Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Typographic_conformity argues for changing hyphens/dashes in quotations to the MOS-accepted version, and I would argue this would extend to web titles too. Possibly also the Jennings title. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:19, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't abbreviate months
Livingstone fixed. The other was a template transclusion, also fixed.
  • Be consistent in whether you include locations for publishers and if so how these are notated
I'll check this over asap.
Done - locations should now only be in citations only appear for newspapers/magazines/reviews, but not websites.
  • FN10: pages?
I don't have this document and I assumed it was a relatively short supplement. I have asked someone who does, to help. If not, it's easy enough to find an alternative.
No sign of a reply so I have made the replacement along with a minor change in wording to reflect the new sources here.
  • Newspaper articles without weblinks should include page numbers
What a pest. I have the cuttings, but omitted to keep the entire paper or note the page. Linked
  • FN20: formatting
Martin, Martin? Not sure what the problem is - "A Description of The Isle of Skye" is a short chapter in "A Description of The Western Islands of Scotland". There are no page numbers as such in the on-line document, but I have added the pdf-determined pages in the quoted source to the refs.
  • FN36: link is broken, as is FN49 - check for others
FN36 - "Aesthetics, morality and bureaucracy: A case study of land reform and perceptions of landscape" - the site is a bit funky. You have to search for the title via the Google search facility, and when you access it, it simply downloads with no discrete page title as far as I can ascertain.
FN49 - removed as the facts are covered by FN48.
I will check the rest asap.
Done. Sabhal Mor is not connecting but as this is the official college website I assume it is just down temporarily. (It's now back up and running). Ben MacDui 16:44, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN65: formatting
I thought this was OK, but I have broken one link and added another here, which hopefully fixes the problem.
" cupofwonder" may sound a bit iffy but at least it provides the track titles and lyrics, which the "official" Tull site can't be bothered to do. There are various others of a similar nature, but they don't seem to add anything.
.theskyeguide is an interesting one and an issue I come across from time-to-time. Is someone who has lived in a remote area for a lifetime and who provides photographic evidence (which he may have borrowed from geograph.org as indeed did Commons) a reliable reference, even if they cannot claim to have the relevant PhD? I have added a duplicate ref from Canmore, which will surely suffice, so Mr. Allan can be removed if he offends.
  • FN73: page?
I think it's a small pamphlet. I don't have it and have replaced it with a ref from the Skye Museum of Island Life. It seems to me this is a reasonable ref, although their webmaster needs to do better with the opening sentence on that page. One notices that the wording is quite similar to this article. Somebody, somewhere is being naughty.
  • FN88: formatting
Hmm. Temp:Cite news grumbles that "If you specify |archiveurl=, you must first specify |url=." and the url is of course dead. I have killed the template and used the style as elsewhere and the one other ref where it was used. Fix.
  • Publisher for Boswell?
Fixed - I'd appreciate it if you could check that the formatting is correct however. I don't usually use these templates.
  • Don't mix different citation-template families.
Fixed.
  • Nikkimaria (talk) 01:01, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    & replies by Ben MacDui 17:40, 30 December 2012 (UTC) and at 17:40, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • When using website names as publishers, be consistent in whether they're capitalized (ex. FN53 vs 60).
  • FN72: date formatting (unless this is the given title, in which case suggest the whole thing be in quote marks to match FN23).
  • FN81, 82, 130: formatting. You can use hand-coded citations alongside templates, but only if the formatting is the same.
  • FN84, 96: spell out acronym.
  • FN90: given the length of this document, suggest including page numbers.
  • Why no link on FN111?
  • WP:IMDB. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:19, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    All attended to bar one. I didn't know about IMDB, so thanks for that. The exception is re FN81, 82, 130.
81- is the same as 85 and they are similar to other web refs, save that there is clearly an author in these two cases.
82 looks the same as say 100 to me.
130 - now 131. Amended per 98. Ben MacDui 17:20, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Comments from Jim I'll probably take a couple of passes at this. Generally a convincing attempt at a major topic, but some queries
  • I don't think the lead is adequate. It's a bit thin, and entire sections, like (understandably?) climate are omitted
Have done. I hope you are not suggesting that the climate might be in some way inadequate... : )
  • I don't like those left-aligned images stuck unpleasantly across headings
I'm obviously not seeing what others are seeing so please check that moving the Viking canal right and Dunvegan Castle up have fixed this.
  • The population trends table is mostly unreadable on FF, I don't know if that's because of the Gaelic pronunciation table?
I fear there are other issues. I will attempt to fix this next.
Now has a horizontal population table and the pronunciation box is moved to the Gaelic sub-section. Please let me know if there are still problems. Ben MacDui 20:05, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are quite a few overlinks, suggest running the duplicate detector script (follow the Scripts tab at the top of my user page if you don't have it)
I hadn't come across the duplicate link scripts before - that's very handy and many thanks for that. Hopefully fixed.
  • Refs 90&92 are showing red on the FF WOT add-on, suggests there may be some privacy or other issues with these links.
I don't have an FF WOT(?). I have been using Featured list tools, which seemed happy enough, although the links are certainly dead. One fixed. Mylo.tv seems both dead and untrackable with Wayback. I have removed the relevant text about his local performances, which may not be very recent in any case.
I'll go through the text in more detail when these more general issues are considered.
  • I'm happy with the responses above, I'll go through the text when I get the chance, but my first read suggested that there shouldn't be many problems Jimfbleak - talk to me? 20:19, 28 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gaelic, Norse and English speaking peoples—need some hyphens, methinks
  • Skaldic—I don't know what this means and no link
  • South-westerlies the most common—word missing
  • declined from over 20,000 to around 9,200 in the early 21st century—I'm not clear when the 20,000 refers to
  • baptized —this appears to be the only AE/Oxford – ize in the article, doesn't strike me as particularly appropiate
  • archeological—typo/AE
  • clearances—inconsistent capitalisation
  • Oyster—should be lc if linked to current family article, or capped and linked to a particular species
The above are all attempted here. Archeological is a stray Americanism according to Wiktionary.
  • The cited books don't all have a publisher location
Done. Ben MacDui 12:06, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for your support and patience. I will link said shellfish - and all the best for 2013. Ben MacDui 14:55, 29 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Really sorry about this. This is an impressive piece of work, and article looks really, really good, but just from reading the lead I have found quite a few little issues with the prose. Nothing major, but perhaps should have been caught before FAC. It is a simple case of polish, and I suspect from a scan through that there are no major prose problems in the article. This is far from set in stone and I will be more than happy to strike once these issues are addressed. I look forward to supporting once I have been through the rest of the article. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:14, 31 December 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • "a mountainous centre dominated by the Cuillin hills, whose rocky slopes provide some of the most dramatic mountain scenery in the country.": Should not be "whose" as the hills are not a person. "the rocky slopes of which"?
Done.
  • Also, "dramatic" suggests editorial judgement.
I see you have not been there! Slesser waxes lyrical: "of all the mountains in the British Isles, these have the most dramatic form". Ref added.
  • "Although it has been suggested that the first of these Gaelic names": these? Presumably the ones mentioned in the first sentence, but it is a little disconcerting, given that the last sentence has no connection with this, to read "these Gaelic names".
Fix attempted
  • "has a colourful history": More editorial judgement?
A fair cop. Removed.
  • "especially the Clearances that replaced entire communities with sheep farms": My rather ropey grammar is ringing alarm bells over "that". I'm pretty sure it should be "which" as it is a non-restrictive clause.
Your ropey grammar is better than mine, which barely qualifies as stringy. Done.
  • "Forced emigrations were a significant factor in resident numbers declining from over 20,000 in the early 19th century to around 9,200 in the early 21st century": Something a little off here, perhaps just the sentence lacking focus. Maybe "Resident numbers fell from over 20,000 in the early 19th century to around 9,200 in the early 21st century—forced emigrations [explain what these were?] were a significant factor in this decline."
Fix in place, with possible explanation of forced emigrations to follow.
Forced emigrations - we have an article on ethnic cleansing, which this process resembles, although there are differences and I have not linked the two in the lead. I can't see any other obvious candidate for linking. I am not sure an explanation is necessary in the lead and there is an example in the relevant history section.
  • "Nonetheless, in contrast to many other Scottish islands, this latter figure represents a 4 per cent increase from the census of 1991.": I don't think we need "nonetheless" and "in contrast". Also, it is strange to read that the last figure is an increase when it is framed as a decline in the previous sentence. And what is the contrast? The figure itself (which the sentence currently seems to suggest in its wording) or the increase since 1991? I would suggest rewording the whole thing. Maybe "In contrast to many other Scottish islands [how many? Some? Most? All? A few?], Skye's population increased by 4 per cent between 1991 and 2001 [is this when the numbers come from, or is it 2011? Some more precision, I think]." And I'm still not happy with the same number showing both a decline and an increase in consecutive sentences.
Will need to check the stats on increases and declines. Running out of time right now.
Added info about a "reduction in Scottish island populations of 3% for the same period". Amended wording to deal with the consecutive sentence issue.
  • "Although their numbers are in decline, the residents include a significant percentage of Gaelic speakers": Again with the declining! Also, what is the connection, as suggested by "although" between the declining numbers and the "significant" [how significant is significant?] number of Gaelic speakers? Maybe just cut the first part of the sentence before "the residents" as the decline point has already been made.
Ah - the Gaelic speakers are in decline, not the total population. I have moved this around and added the latest estimate of numbers.
  • "known for its picturesque harbour": A bit more judgement?
Not guilty m'lud. "Portree picturesque" provides Ghits. VisitScotland may be one of the few that is an RS but Murray mentions its "finest harbour" status.
  • "and is now linked to the mainland": Suggests that this is recent. Perhaps give a date?
Done
  • "The island is renowned": And again we are in danger of sounding like a tourist information leaflet.
Downgraded to "well-known".
  • "The local flora of is dominated": Missing word?
Fixed.
  • "Skye has provided the backdrop for various novels and locations for several feature films and is celebrated in poetry and song.": Could this be made more concise; for example "Skye has provided the location for novels and feature films and is celebrated in many songs and poems."
Done.
Your sorrow is misplaced. I should be apologising for my journeyman writing skills - I am grateful for your corrections. A good New Year to you and congratulations on your WikiCup achievements. Ben MacDui 14:58, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Lead corrections completed. Ben MacDui 16:35, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Struck oppose now. And I think you may be confusing me for someone else as I've never had anything to do with the Wikicup. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:25, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Ah. That was of course Sasata, whose knowledge of cricket may be deficient by comparison. A senior moment. Ben MacDui 12:29, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More comments: Read to the end of the Geography section now. Looking good, just a few minor points. I've done some minor copy-editing, but feel free to revert anything I have messed up or that you don't like. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:25, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The main peninsulas include Trotternish in the north, Waternish, Duirinish, Minginish and Strathaird to the west and Sleat in the south. Surrounding islands include Isay, Longay, Pabay, Raasay, Rona, Scalpay, Soay and Wiay.[1][17] ": Getting a little listy here? My attention wondered partway through.
Delistified.
  • "W. H. Murray that "Skye is sixty miles long, but what might be its breadth is beyond the ingenuity of man to state"": I'm not too sure what this means.
It's a reference to the irregular shape of the island. I'll add a Note. Done.
  • "some of the most dramatic and challenging mountain terrain in Scotland": Says who?
Copied "dramatic" ref from above - on the same page Slesser states of the Black Cuillin that they : "present acres of vertical rock... [and are] ... the ultimate challenge to the hill-walker ". I think the sentence that follows also provides the information that cites the challenging nature of these hills, but I can add further refs if need be.
  • "that requires technical climbing skills": Can we be more precise? I have no climbing skills whatsoever, so any climbing is technical for me. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:25, 1 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Added a link to Rock climbing. In short, to climb the In Pinn you need a skilled guide and a rope. All the other hills are accessible to the hill walker. Ben MacDui 12:29, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Final comments, leaning support: Read to the end now. Just a few more minor issues. Overall, a fantastic article and I will be happy to support once these are addressed. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:14, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • First paragraph of "Prehistory" mentions a few links between places. Is it worth explaining how we know? Or is that too much? (Asking here, rather than suggesting)
Added a phrase about mudstone tools.
  • "Loch na h-Airde, which is situated close to the ruins of a promontory fort, is linked to the sea by the artificial "Viking canal" and there are remains of prehistoric settlement dating from the Neolithic, Bronze and Iron Ages nearby.": The mention of the fort (is this Mesolithic?) and the "Viking" is a bit confusing here as we are mixing historical periods. Also, should settlement be plural here (although settlement works OK, it sounds slightly off).
I have reworded the para and added a few clarificatory details. I think settlement singular is OK in this context - the area of flat land that seems to have been used is only about 200m2 in extent with the fort less than a third of a km away.
  • "although the historical record is weak": Perhaps "sparse" may be better, as the historical record is patchy for just about everywhere in this period and weak suggests comparison.
Done
  • "Three Pictish symbol stones are known from Skye and a fourth from Raasay.": Known? Does this mean they were found there, or just recorded as existing there.
Clarified.
  • "Gaelic": This section is slightly hard reading as a list of figures. Could it be made more narrative, or perhaps the figures included in a table?
I cut down on the detail a little, which I hope helps. The source is on-line and has ample extra detail for those who want it.
Done.
  • "The unemployment rate in the area tends to be higher than that for the Highlands as a whole, and is seasonal in nature.": Any explanation for this?
Tourism for the latter, which I have added. Relative remoteness is probably the explanation for the former but I can't see an explanation in the source. There are some stats from 2009 but from the even wider area of Lochaber, Skye and Wester Ross, and they don't seem to offer a rationale.
  • The wildlife section gets a little listy again, but not sure that can be avoided. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:14, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I added a short anecdote and demoted one species, which breaks up the birds a bit. Any other suggestions gratefully received. Ben MacDui 19:48, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support: (I did some slight copy-editing) More than happy to support now. A really interesting article and a very readable one. Great stuff. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:11, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks indeed for your input and patience. Ben MacDui 21:29, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

supportcomments. Lovely article. Some minor queries.

  • I feel using"strath" rather than, say, "valley" may be carrying the Scottish English too far, wiki link notwithstanding. As a Scotiish-born Australian I am reasonably familiar with common scottish English words, but I'd not seen this one before.
"Strath" is the word used by Murray, but I have hidden it with a piped link.
  • what do people think about rum not being in the list of surrounding islands, but being visible on the map and then later being referred to as a nearby island?
The list is not comprehensive - see Template:Skye at the foot of the page. Rum is one of the Small Isles and Haswell Smith (2004) has the two in separate sections. I piped the link as Rùm is the Gaelic name and the diacritic is really only used here for dab purposes.
  • though the article is generally fabulous, I do not think a 1970 book published by a mountaineering club comes within cooee of being an adequate source for the very pointy claim that generations of uk governments treated the island contemptuously. That's a serious proposition (and I agree with it) and it needs a heavyweight historical reference.
You are sir, talking of the SMC a sort of Scottish MCC, and Slesser was a distinguished academic, if not an historian. Putting aside my mock outrage, it's not difficult to find opinions of this kind relating to the problem in general, e. g. here (after all, populations fell for well over a century when they were doubling and doubling again in genuinely remote locations like the Faeroes) but I'll have to hunt for another one specifically about Skye.
I've added a Hunter ref and a new Note. Let me know if you think I am over-egging the pudding. Ben MacDui 17:28, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
it's a significant claim, so not easily over-egged, and I found the new note interesting. Others may prefer it more concise, but not me. I'm happy with that. Comparing the SMC to the MCC doesn't do the SMC justice :-) hamiltonstone (talk) 21:37, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • the article says the college is in Sleat. Does this mean it is not in any of the settlements? I was a bit confused for a moment because Sleat isn't linked, but also isn't listed among the towns and villages, and I had to go back and re-read, to see it was one of the peninsulas.
I've added a link to Kilmore, Skye.

Thanks for the great work Ben. hamiltonstone (talk) 04:12, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome of course. Ben MacDui 13:37, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

... and many thanks for your support. Ben MacDui 09:16, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Image check - all OK (own work, PD age, geography). Sources and authors provided (tweaked 2 licenses and captions). GermanJoe (talk) 08:16, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Ben MacDui 13:37, 2 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Skye_map.PNG is a good start, but it should show the Skye Bridge and Kyle of Lochalsh; it's kind of misleading as it stands. Adding the roads to the map wouldn't be a bad idea either - Skye has very few, after all. Adam Cuerden (talk) 22:59, 3 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to look at improving it, although this is not my current skill set. Isle of Skye UK location map.svg seems to offer some possibilities but I have no idea how it might be annotated and I may have to request some help. Ben MacDui 21:29, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There is a new map in the economy section. There isn't enough space for the annotation "Kyelakin and the Skye Bridge" without squeezing some of the other text - the Bridge is in any case pretty small at this scale. Ben MacDui 19:34, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I just find it a little misleading to show blue water where a bridge is. It confuses things slightly. It's not a major issue, of course.Adam Cuerden (talk) 20:52, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As the second map indicates the bridge I assume you are referring to the first map that shows the surrounding islands. If you go to Google Earth you will see that at that magnitude the bridge is more-or-less invisible. (Note that the bridge crosses the pre-existing Eilean Ban that is just about visible). If you think it is important the creator of Skye_map.PNG is still active and I can ask them to look at it - although if we assume it is a map of the physical geography to scale ( as opposed to a road map) one would need a very fine nib indeed. Ben MacDui 10:11, 6 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose - (points adressed, see below] reluctant for now. A fine article on an interesting topic, but it still has some minor prose issues and a slight tourist-guide tone in some parts (a problem with a lot of geography-related articles). More should be done to keep the text as neutral and uninvolved as possible. I haven't really checked the sources, but sources like the "Scottish Mountaineer Club" should only be used for common, uncontroversial statements of fact. If they are used for statements of opinion, the statement should be phrased as opinion, and not as fact (also it should be checked, if those opinions are really that noteworthy for an encyclopedia). Enough rambling, some points follow:

  1. lead "The climate is mild, wet and windy." => the short sentence looks a bit abrupt and out of context at the end of first para. Maybe move it before fauna and flora in the third para.
    Done. Ben MacDui
  2. Most of the second lead para needs some rewriting: "[The events of the 18th and 19th centuries,] especially the Clearances[—some which involved forced emigrations—]replaced entire communities with sheep farms." => vague, what events besides the Clearances? Also a bit confusing, isn't "Clearances" a summary term for forced displacement and migration (so all or most of it involved emigrations, not "some")? Suggestion: Leave the special term "Clearances" to the article body and just summarize the events in the lead in general accessible terms.
    All clearances involved forced migrations, but in this context "emigrations" means forced removal to another continent. I added "to distant lands" and re-worded the 18th and 19th centuries bit. The Clearances were the dominant feature of the 19th century and I don't think you can avoid mentioning them in the lead.
  3. "[This had a devastating impact on the human population and ] resident numbers declined from over 20,000 in the early 19th century to just under 9,000 by the closing decade of 20th century." => Leave the analysis to the article body. Too detailed for lead and clear anyway from the numbers.
    Done.Ben MacDui
  4. "Skye's population [then] increased by 4 per cent between 1991 and 2001[, compared to an overall reduction in Scottish island populations of 3% for the same period.]" => "then" is default mode, superfluous. Trim the comparison, it is too detailed for a summary lead (fine for main body of course).
    Done. (Pls note that the comparison was added after discussion above.) Ben MacDui
  5. "About a third of the residents are Gaelic speakers ..." => I'd add a "As of YYYY" here to have an immediate date for this fact (side question: are there any more actual census numbers available? 2001 is a bit aged.).
    Done. Re the census - not yet. The headline figures for Scotland have emerged from the 2011 census, but no detail on the islands. Without wishing to discuss the details of our world views, I must say that I think of 2001 as quite recent. It's all relative. Ben MacDui
  6. "[The island is well-known for its spectacular landscapes,[8][11]] vibrant culture and heritage ..." => Remove first part. Sorry to be a spoil sport, but neither source qualifies as neutral and uninvolved (both have an interest in promoting Scottish mountaineering). "Vibrant culture" should be toned down and specified, which kind of cultural activities? The "culture" section only mentions strong folklore music, name that instead of some tourist-guide praise.
    • I'm pursuaded by GermanJoe on "vibrant culture", but not on removing the part about the spectacular landscape. This was discussed earlier, which led Ben to add those refs. I'm sure he could find more, and there was a reason it was chosen as a site for filming, and I would let it stand as is. hamiltonstone (talk) 10:49, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Guess it's just the "spectacular"-part bugging me and my instinctive aversion against such descriptions ;). No biggie, while i'd still prefer something less strong, something mid-way between nice and spectacular, after all this is always a matter of opinion of the viewer. GermanJoe (talk) 11:19, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Bennet's The Monros has of Sgurr nan Gillean that it offers from its summit on a clear day "one of the world's greatest mountain views". Yes, the SMC exist to promote mountaineering but, to quote it's own website: "It is safe to say that the SMC includes amongst its members some of the finest mountaineers active today. Although climbing in Scotland is given a high priority, members regularly climb in mountain ranges throughout the world." Murray climbed in the Himalayas for example, and if anything the role of mountaineering in Skye's history is underplayed. You could try Cal Mac - who are in the business of persuading visitors, but then why would they choose to single out Skye? The BBC refer to the "breathtaking wilderness" of this area. It would be interesting to see if we could find a half-decent description of Skye's landscape that didn't include a superlative of some kind. Island life has its drawbacks, but mediocre views aren't one of them. Rant over - I'm not attached to "spectacular" as such.
    "vibrant is, in my mind a comparison with the doldrums of the past - clearly a small island can't provide the facilities and opportunities on offer in even a medium-sized town. "Re-vitalised" might work, but I have just changed "vibrant to "Gaelic" as this is one of the things that marks Skye out as different from the mainland.
    On reflection the entire sentence might be redundant now as film, novels, Gaelic and mountain scenery are already mentioned in the lead elsewhere now. Ben MacDui
  7. "Skye has provided the locations for various novels and feature films and [is celebrated in poetry and song.]" => Again, that is not reflected by the coverage in the main body. 2 or 3 known lyrics and songs are not that notable.
    • I agree on "celebrated in poetry", but wouldn't agree on song: Skye Boat Song is a major piece in the folk tradition. Would suggest it is highly notable.hamiltonstone (talk) 10:49, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • If that song is outstanding, maybe it should be mentioned here rather than the current very general statement. For me "celebrated in ..." would imply atleast several notable examples world-wide, not only one or two in a limited genre. GermanJoe (talk) 11:20, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    You can't be expected to know off-the-cuff that Sorley MacLean "was one of the most significant Scottish poets of the 20th century". He lived on Skye and wrote of it of course. Hallaig, possibly his best known poem, is about nearby Raasay. Why would we need world-wide examples? It says the island is celebrated, which it is, not that these works are world famous. I believe Jethro Tull have a few fans outwith Skye. Ben MacDui
  8. Etymology "In April 2007 it was reported ... discontinue the English language name." => Remove completely (see WP:NOTNEWSPAPER). On a long-range historical scale this event seems to have no notability.
    Fair enough and done. Back in the day this was simply an afterthought to a whole essay on the subject. Ben MacDui
  9. Geography "Malcolm Slesser suggested that its shape "sticks out of the west coast of northern Scotland like a lobster's claw ready to snap at the fish bone of Harris and Lewis"[8]." - Remove. Not encyclopedic (also it looks more like a horse or a broken trident, but none of this is really relevant fact).
    may show his notion off to better effect. I am not sure why you think this isn't "encyclopedic'. I accept that it is subjective, but the man is a respected authority and the island's shape is difficult to describe. Ben MacDui
  10. "A full traverse of the Cuillin ridge may take 15–20 hours." - Remove, see WP:NOTAMOUNTAINEERGUIDE (ok, i just made up that guide, but such travel details do not belong in a summary article).
    Believe me, these are not "travel details". I have added an opening clause about the uniqueness of the experience in the context of the British Isles .Ben MacDui
  11. Towns and villages => Could that -rather dry- list of towns be expanded with one notable fact per town? Of course you can't describe every detail, but what would be the most interesting feature for some of those towns?
    Even by the standards of the Highlands, Portree is the only "town". I'll look at this asap.
    These places are very small and without going into trivia it's hard to say a great deal. I've added a little. Ben MacDui
  12. History "thirty three" - needs hyphen (MOS:NUMBERS)
    Done Ben MacDui
  13. "Three Class 1 Pictish symbol stones have been found [] Skye and a fourth on Raasay" => Missing word, also is it possible to briefly describe "Class 1" or link to an article about the classification system, if available? "Class 1" on its own has no meaning for the average reader.
    Fixed the missing word. Removed Class 1 - I doubt Pictish means much either, but the only way to provide a link would be to a section of the symbol stone article, which would make for a rather long blue link.
  14. Economy "Key attractions include Dunvegan Castle, the Clan Donald Visitor Centre, and The Aros Experience in Portree." - Lacking a wiki-article this needs a brief descriptor, what is "The Aros Experience", a bird show?
    • I also meant to pick this up in my review (the Aros Experience) - it's opaque to the lay reader. hamiltonstone (talk) 10:49, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    Added "arts and exhibition centre". Ben MacDui
  15. Culture ==> the section has a lot of details about folk music, literature and films. Does that coverage really reflect the relative importance of those topics, i.e. are there other cultural activities worth mentioning?
    Not that I'm aware of. I added a sentence about arts and crafts to the economy section although I don't think any are worth mentioning by name. I confess to a conflict of interest - I am a fan of the Isle of Skye Fudge Company. Ben MacDui

All in all, i feel the article is close to FA-range, just needs a more restrictive check for tone and minor prose issues (especially the lead needs some work). Also culture and source usage could use a second look. GermanJoe (talk) 10:02, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for you attention. I'll have a look at the bulk of them tomorrow. Ben MacDui 21:29, 4 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
All the above now have replies/actions. Ben MacDui 15:41, 5 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support - thanks for looking into those points. Of course there is no problem with disagreeing on a few points. Some of them were just meant as suggestions or points for clarification. The style concerns have been improved and/or explained. Great work on bringing this article up to this level. One suggestion, purely optional:

  • Consider moving the last two sentences of the second lead para ("The main industries ...") to the third paragraph. Then the second para would contain only "history and population" and the third would contain all other relevant facts. GermanJoe (talk) 12:36, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Many thanks for your attention and support. I'll look at the above soonest. Ben MacDui 17:56, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Done, plus a few other bits of re-ordering per above discussion. Ben MacDui 19:02, 7 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. Just read the first few sections for now. Will try to come back later and complete.

Images

  • I think there might be too many images. Several are not attractive (especially Dunvegan Castle, Casteal Maol); considering how picturesque Skye really is, can better be found?
The castle image seemed to me the best on offer - File:Dunvegan Castle - geograph.org.uk - 337829.jpg? Caisteal Maol has been replaced with something that's arguably nicer - File:Caisteal Moil - geograph.org.uk - 2776.jpg. The aim here was to include at least one image relating to the economy, in this case fishing boats.
  • Map under Geography is quite poor. Should definitely show bridge, Kyle of Lochalsh and Red Cuillin, plus ideally indication of topography, extent of settlements, major roads, ferries. The later map under Economy is also poor, and I see no reason to have two showing rather similar features. One more comprehensive one would be ideal.
Ideal perhaps, and:
I don't know how one would be created (I have asked in the past and the answers have generally been PC-related and I have a Mac).
You are also asking for quite a lot of detail on what would inevitably be a rather small image. I think "Skye and the surrounding islands" identifies the physical geography quite well and (as hinted at above) a bridge on a map of physical geography to scale would be c. 0.05mm wide. Include the Red Cuillin - but why not then the Storr, Quirang, and Macleod's Tables? Why Kyle of Lochalsh? - it's not on Skye.
Things have moved on a little, quality-wise in the last few years and I am not arguing that we should not hold ourselves to the highest possible standards that are available. I did a little research at WP:FA, choosing the first few FAs that looked like they might be about a rural area that came to view. Bryce Canyon & Caroline Island have no map. Exmoor & Shapinsay - map with no annotation. Little Thetford - nice map, only annotation is name of village. Perhaps they are old FAs? I looked down the list of recent approvals and Istanbul came up. Has a map of local districts with lots of tiny detail about that, but nothing else e.g. roads, main features.
I like maps, but for any given article all we have to do is click the Coord or Infobox link to be provided with a wide selection.
More than happy to do what I can, but some practical suggestions would be helpful. Ben MacDui
I added the Skye Bridge to the existing map - may have to WP:BYC to see it. Am re-reading the article now. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 19:31, 12 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I found a shaded topographic map (no roads) on Commons and made a new version of the labeled map and was BOLD and added it to the article just now (see File:Isle of Skye UK relief location map labels.jpg). It has the same labels as File:Skye map.PNG, as there is a limit as to how many labels can be added to a map if it is to be legible, especially one that is only displayed at 300 pixels wide. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 04:39, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Lead

  • para 1. 'Cuillin hills' feels odd in context of mountains in rest of sentence; perhaps just the Cuillins? Also use Cuillin hills under geography and in associated map.
"Hills" is essentially Scottish English in this context. "Cuillins" it is.
  • para 2. Needs a copy edit; clumsy sentences, lack of clarity.
Can I ask you to be more specific? The lead has gone through various adjustments already per the above. Ben MacDui

Etymology

  • paras 1,2. Unclear why start with Gaelic/Norse/English, then go back to Roman. Short paragraphs should perhaps be amalgamated.
I have moved this around - note that the Romans didn't live or even necessarily even visit the island.
  • para 2. Skitis: I was completely confused about the asterisk and link to asterisk here. My first assumption was that 'skitis' meant asterisk. I think this should be de-obfuscated.
Asterisks removed. The linguists may grumble of course.
  • para 2. Ravenna Cosmography should be itals.
Done.
  • para 3. Final sentence unclear. Munro wrote of Sky, but quotation doesn't contain the word?
Its Monro's "title" for his description. See Description of the Western Isles of Scotland# Identity of the islands. Ben MacDui

Geography

  • I am a bit concerned about the reliance of chunks of this section on a single 1966 reference. Are there no more recent texts?
There are, and some of them are interspersed here and there. Munro was the foremost writer of his day and other than Jim Hunter and Haswell-Smith I am not aware of any better sources. The geography of the island is much as it was fifty years ago and he is only used where the information remains as it was.
  • Scotland probably doesn't need repeat link.
Tch - fixed by linking to list of islands rather than Scotland.
  • I like the quotation from Martin, but think a modern geological note would perhaps be more relevant.
It might be, although other than the usual platitudes about spectacular scenery, rather more matter-of-fact. I have others sources, but most of the relevant detail follows and it might be better to either remove it, or relegate it to a Note.
  • A geological map would be super.
Indeed, although none such exists at present.
  • Cuillin paragraph mixes hill walking/climbing in with geography/geology.
It provides a flavour of the landscape, which is approaching unique in the context of the British Isles. This could be moved to "economy" as clearly this is an aspect of the tourist industry but it seemed to me more useful to include it here when a discussion of the relevant hills is adjacent.
  • Final para, first section. 'The bedrock of Sleat...' sentence repeats 'produces'.
Fixed
  • Towns and villages. This section feels a bit perfunctory. Skye bridge should be re-linked, especially as link in lead is piped.
Bridge linked.
  • Ditto. The date for the Portree population figure should be stated, especially as it is different from the date used for the overall population in the infobox. Where do the bulk of non-Portree residents live? (There are ~7000 residents unaccounted for.)
Population date included.
"Much of the rest of the population lives in crofting townships scattered around the coastline." added to the end. The number of crofts (2,000) is referred to later on.
  • Ditto. '...Skye Bridge that spans the narrows of Loch Alsh.' that --> which
Done.
  • Ditto. Broadford should be linked here, and delinked in Climate
Done - missed when the section was moved above. Ben MacDui
Re prefunctory, the problem is (as referred to above) is their small size. They can be expanded of course, but Edinbane for example has about 50 houses. Uig's population is about 200. Dunvegan has a few shops and a restuarant - but what else to say. The Giant MacAskill Museum maybe? Added a note about the 18th-century Stein Inn.
Also added a sentence about Glendale and Sleat later, but they are hardly villages and it seemed more useful in the economy section. Ben MacDui

Climate

  • First sentence. Verb should probably be singular (subject is influence).
Hmm - I think its a they. Not sure.
  • 'frosts are fewer' --> less frequent?
Amended.
  • Table. Where is Duntulm?
Linked. Ben MacDui

Espresso Addict (talk) 01:25, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your attention. I'll respond to the remainder soonest. Ben MacDui 19:05, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Answers are I think completed. Ben MacDui 20:08, 8 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support As noted above, I peer reviewed this long ago, and made the map used in the Geography section (inadequate though it may be). I have re-read the article and find it meets the FA requirements and has my full support. I have a few quibbles that need to be addressed, but which do not detract from my support.
    • Eilean a' Cheò is in the first sentence, but is not mentioned in the Etymology section. Although it is mentioned in the Government and politics section, there is not much on it there. If the meaning is known, can it be given - if not, can the fact that this meaning is also unknown be added to the article? Also, I seem to recall that Eilean a' Cheò referred to an electoral district, not just the island of Skye itself (?) - if so, this should be clarified (perhaps in a footnote).
The info about the renaming was removed on request (above) but I have added a sentence about the meaning of Eilean a' Cheò and added this text back as a Note as it is not really about the etymology. Arguably the Note could be in the politics section.
    • I do not speak Gaelic, but my guess is that "Eilean" may mean "island" - if so, should this be mentioned in the article?
It should and now is.
    • Geography - Wiay is south and west of Skye but The islands of Raasay, Rona, Scalpay, Pabay, and Wiay all lie to the north and east between Skye and the mainland.[1][15]
Tch - fixed.
    • Government and politics - should the caption be something like "Charles Kennedy, Skye's MP since 1983"?
He is a jolly fellow, so why not? Done.

Hope this helps - I will see what I can do on improving the map further. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 01:25, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks indeed both for your support and the upgraded map, which is a significant improvement. Ben MacDui 12:14, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delegate notes

  • For completeness I'd expect to see a citation for the last sentence of Towns and villages.
Funny one this. It's a sort of "the Pope is a catholic" statement that's obvious to a local (where else would they be?) and not so easy to source as it applies to almost all of the Hebrides, but you are quite right of course. McGoodwin ref added, which hopefully does the trick.
  • "Source: [34]" looks a bit odd, any reason we couldn't just cite the table's heading, i.e. "Climate data for Duntulm [34]"?
I've added "Cooper (1983)" per the Istanbul article, which certainly looks more sensible.

Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:55, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for these. The snow is looming and I may be unable to make many detailed replies for the next 24 hrs or so. Ben MacDui 12:49, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Not an issue, I think we can wrap up this nom now -- if Espresso would like any further tweaks following your responses then I expect they can be taken care of via the article talk page... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:39, 13 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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