Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sino-Roman relations/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 16:03, 31 March 2017 [1].

Sino-Roman relations edit

Nominator(s): Pericles of Athens^Talk 11:23, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about the largely indirect relations between the Roman Empire (and its medieval incarnation, the Eastern Roman Empire) and the Han dynasty of China, followed by relations with subsequent Chinese dynasties. It contains information about ancient authors from both the Roman and Han Chinese realms and in some cases their attempts to understand the geography, history, culture, society, and governments of the respective empires on opposite ends of the Eurasian continent. The major focus, however, is on the poorly understood diplomatic missions that occurred between these two empires, as well as the trade activity that occurred between them via the Indian Ocean. In my humble opinion, the article is very well-sourced, easy to read, and well within the strictures of Wikipedia:Article size. From what I can tell it also possesses all the necessary FA requirements, being a well-organized, stable article with plenty of images to illustrate the topic. At the end of last year it also passed its Wikipedia:Good articles review, months after I had nominated it and honed each section according to the suggestions of the reviewers. I hope that you enjoy the read! Cheers. Pericles of Athens^Talk 11:23, 2 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Anything with a {{PD-old}} tag also needs a US PD tag
File:LocationOfTashkurgan.jpg: what's the source of the underlying data?
File:Illustration_of_Byzantine_embassy_to_Tang_Taizong_643_CE.jpg needs a better tag
Photos of 3D works should also include a tag for the original work. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:45, 4 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Nikkimaria. Even though I've written FA articles in the past, I've never really been good at this license tagging thing and I almost always wind up needing help with it. To the best of my abilities I've included US PD tags (specifically "PD-1923") for each of the PD-Old images used in the article. I've removed the image file "LocationOfTashkurgan.jpg" because I do not feel like hunting down the originator of the map, let alone having him or her hunt for the source that they used. If it's a non-sourced image, then it can go in the waste bin as far as I'm concerned. I never really noticed anything about the tag or source for that image, because it was a preexisting image before I began editing the article. As for "Illustration_of_Byzantine_embassy_to_Tang_Taizong_643_CE.jpg" I have since added a "PD-1923" tag as well, since it was published in 1920. As for photos of 3D works, you're going to have to be more specific here, since including "a tag for original work" flew right over my head. How do I go about doing that? I don't understand you. You might as well be speaking Swahili. Lol. Anyways, thanks for the image review. This is always something that slips my mind when I submit an FA, since I tend to have all my other ducks lined in a row and ready to go. Pericles of Athens^Talk 18:56, 4 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If you take a picture of a three-dimensional artwork, there are two copyrights that need to be considered: your copyright as the photographer, and the artist's copyright on their artwork. In this case, the artworks are all almost certainly out of copyright, but we should include a tag that indicates why - whether {{PD-old}} or whatever else - in addition to the tag indicating the photographer's copyright. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:31, 4 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Oh! Okay. I'll see to it that PD-old tags are added to those images, then! Thanks for clarifying. Pericles of Athens^Talk 19:36, 4 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments: Recusing as coordinator for this one. I'm reading this (slowly), and it looks good so far. I made two minor tweaks, and my only real question so far (to the end of the Geography section) is whether we need all three maps in the lead. The first certainly, the third probably, but I'm not quite sure of the need for the second. Also, we have two Renaissance reconstructions of Roman maps. I'd like to know a little more about where these came from; how were they created? More importantly, I think the captions need referencing as the maps are not mentioned in the text (unless I missed it, or it comes later). Sarastro1 (talk) 23:01, 20 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

More: I've read down to the end of "Other Roman Embassies" now. Generally, looking very good, but a few little quibbles to add to the ones above. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:04, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Recent excavations at the burial site of China's first Emperor Qin Shi Huang": Can we date this? "Recent" is a little vague, and will date.
It's a little disconcerting to see the long quote by Florus cited to Yule. I think we need to say something along the lines of "Quoted in Yule..." in the ref. We need to say where we found the quote, if not in the original source. This is also the case for the later quotes in the "Envoy Gan Ying" section.
Given that Yule was writing over a hundred years ago, has there been no follow-up work since?
It's a bit jarring to read of Gan Ying without any explanation of who he is until the next section. Could we at least say "since Chinese records insist that Gan Ying was the first Chinese to reach as far west as Tiaozhi in [year]"? We also end up linking him twice in quick succession: here and in the next section.
Why are the two long quotations in the "Envoy Gan Ying" section in italics? I'm pretty sure this is against MOS.
"While Syrian jugglers were renowned in Western Classical literature,[65] Chinese sources from the 2nd century BC to 2nd century AD mention them as well.": I might be missing something here, but I'm really not sure why we are saying "while" here. Where is the comparison?
"which Yule deftly notes was the same criticism directed at papal missionary John of Montecorvino when he arrived in China in the late 13th century": Hmm, "deftly"? We can't really pass comment on the accuracy, effectiveness, brilliance, or otherwise of our sources as this would certainly be POV.
"as well as a Chinese officer, Liu Xian of Huiji (in Zhejiang), who unfortunately died en route": Similarly, I'm not sure we should be saying that this is "unfortunate".
I also noticed around here the rather odd footnote "Yule (1915), p. 53; please see footnotes #4–5." While undoubtedly polite, it comes across as a little unprofessional!
I note again that we are very dependent on Yule here. Is there really nothing more modern in this field? Sarastro1 (talk) 23:04, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sarastro1: greetings! Thanks for taking the time to review the article. To the best of my abilities I've attempted to tackle each and every bullet point you have raised here. You may cycle through the latest edits to see the various changes that I've recently made to the article. I've also provided a British Library citation for that Renaissance map, and removed the second map of the lead section as you've suggested. As for a seemingly heavy reliance on Henry Yule (1915), I will admit that 26 out of 161 citations is a bit skewed, but by no means nearing a majority of the citations or even a quarter of them. This is a very arcane topic; there aren't many present-day academics who tackle it in full or as extensively as Yule did. Despite the lack of attention this topic receives in academia as a whole, I've nevertheless managed to cite Thorley (1971), Yü (1986), Pulleyblank (1999), Young (2001), Lewis (2007), de Crespigny (2007), Bang (2009), Hill (2009), Scheidel (2009), Christopoulos (2012), and Ball (2016), all of whom have given it considerable attention. Unfortunately I was unable to directly consult Leslie Gardiner (1996), but the article doesn't suffer too much from the lack of her groundbreaking scholarship on the matter. Quite frankly I don't think it is the fault of the article that the topic itself isn't given a greater amount of attention it probably deserves. That's my 2 cents at any rate. Pericles of Athens^Talk 02:56, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

More: Still looking very good, and very readable. I've read to the end of "Roman exports to China". Sarastro1 (talk) 08:36, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm a little uncomfortable with the length of the quotation from Ma Duanlin and wonder if some of it could be cut or paraphrased. Not a big issue in any case.
"Richthofen's identification of Cattigara as Hanoi was widely accepted until archaeological discoveries made at Óc Eo (near Ho Chi Minh City) in the Mekong Delta suggested this may have been its location": Can we date these discoveries? It would provide some contrast with the 1877 date mentioned. Sarastro1 (talk) 08:36, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I dated it as "mid-20th century" since it is explained a couple sentences later that it was excavated by Louis Malleret during the 1940s. As for the Ma Duanlin quote, I'll see what I can do, although I also don't consider it a pressing issue. Pericles of Athens^Talk 19:17, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

More, ~~leaning support~~: I've read to the end now, and fully expect to support this. It is very interesting, and very well written. However, there are a few places where we drift into academic style which does not quite fit here. There is one example below, but there are a few borderline cases where we get a little too "chatty". Nothing that can't be fixed easily. My other nagging concern is the use of long quotations, as I mentioned above and one below. I'd not oppose on this, or even come close, but I do wonder how necessary they are. My inclination is to replace them with a summary, but that is perhaps a matter of taste; I do know that a few editors would actually oppose over similar issues, but maybe not when we are quoting primary sources. Anyway, this can be discussed further. I'd like to read over it one last time, and maybe give a few places a mild copy-edit, but there are no major issues here at all. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:07, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"Despite the claims by Pliny the Elder about the trade imbalance and much of Rome's coinage used to purchase silk, Warwick Ball asserts that the spice trade and purchase of other commodities was of much greater consequence for the Roman economy": I'm not too sure what we are saying here. Greater positive or negative consequence, and how does that link to the main idea about the silk trade?
I'm not sure of the benefit of the long quotes by Pliny and Seneca. If Pliny were cut right now, the main text would still summarise the content perfectly; the second quote is a little more useful but could easily be replaced with a word or two more. The article is already long; I'd say they are unnecessary, but that would not affect whether I support.
"Trade items such as spice and silk had to be paid for with Roman gold coinage, but although there was some demand in China for Roman glass, glass was also produced locally in China": Can we rephrase to avoid "...glass. Glass..."?
"Even with the Byzantine production of silk starting in the 6th century AD, Chinese varieties were still considered of better quality, a fact that is perhaps underscored by the discovery of a Byzantine solidus minted during the reign of Justin II found in a Sui-dynasty tomb of Shanxi province in 1953, among other Byzantine coins found at various sites.": This reads a little too much like a history paper and less like an encyclopedia. I couldn't really think of a way to reword this, but I think we need to take out the academic tone. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:07, 28 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sarastro1: greetings! Thanks for coming back to review the article. Pericles of Athens^Talk 07:01, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have reworded the part about Warwick Ball's claim regarding the spice trade.
I have removed the quote by Pliny the Elder and summarized its contents instead, seeing how it perhaps offers less to our readers than other quotations used in the article. I have no desire and see no need to do the same for the quote by Seneca the Elder, though. For that matter I don't think there is any problem in quoting brief passages from primary sources. Although merely mentioning it borders on Wikipedia:Other stuff exists, I feel compelled to note that some featured articles contain quotations from primary sources as well, such as the article on Pericles (my namesake here on Wiki). I would consider it to be highly obnoxious if someone actually opposed this article's FA candidacy on the sole basis that some primary source quotations have been sparingly used. With the removal of Pliny, there are now only five block quotations, three of them very small, and two of them somewhat large. Perhaps the two larger ones can be parsed down, but again, I don't think that should affect the article's FA candidacy. If someone actually does oppose the article on such grounds, I'd suggest waiting for a second, third, fourth, and fifth opinion on the matter before considering the removal of further quotations.
I have reworded the sentence about glass. Good catch! It's never a good thing to sound redundant.
I have also reworded the part about Chinese silk and Byzantine coins that you thought sounded too academic for an encyclopedia.

I hope that these recent changes are suitable enough to earn your support. Please let me know if there are any further concerns you might have with the article and its prose, sourcing, image captions, etc. Kind regards, Pericles of Athens^Talk 07:01, 1 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support with a copy-editing disclaimer: This was very enjoyable, and thank you for your patience with the pace of my review. I've removed some of the less formal, or "academic" phrasings but feel free to revert anything I messed up. This is a long article, and I might have missed something but it looks good after a couple of read-throughs. It is a little unusual for a WP article, in several ways, but I think it meets the FA criteria. I have this watch-listed and will keep an eye on other comments in case I have missed anything important. Long, deeply sourced articles like this can be tricky to review, so I hope this one gets a few more eyes. Sarastro1 (talk) 23:10, 3 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sarastro1: great! Thanks for taking the time to review thearticle. The flow of it has been markedly improved and the prose tightened thanks to your input. Cheers. Pericles of Athens^Talk 01:40, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Sabine's Sunbird edit

I like this, very worthy and interesting subject. Some comments from a non-historian.

I've made a handful of edits
In Roman geography China and the silk-producing Seres' of the Far East. - probably good to explain what Seres means here, since its the first mention in the main text
Florus seems to have confused the Seres with peoples of India, or at least noted that their skin complexions proved that they both lived "beneath another sky" than the Romans.[2] Roman authors generally seem to have demonstrated some confusion as to where the Seres were located precisely, in either Central Asia or East Asia This would be clearer if I understood what the writer meant by Seres, so that one can better contrast it with the confusion of classical writers.
In the 1st-century AD Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, ... he visited many of these locations is a very long sentence. Maybe break it up thusly In the 1st-century AD Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, its anonymous Greek-speaking author, a merchant of Roman Egypt, provides such vivid accounts of trade cities that it is clear he visited many of these locations. These accounts included trade cities in Arabia, Pakistan, and India, including travel times from rivers and towns, where to drop anchor, the locations of royal courts, lifestyles of the locals and goods found in their markets, and favorable times of year to sail from Egypt to these places in order to catch the monsoon winds.?
Consistency: Óc Eo in lead, most likely Oc Eo, Vietnam in text
Some of the locations and dependent states of Rome in the Weilüe that were identified by Friedrich Hirth (1885) have been contradicted by John E. Hill (2004). I feel this would flow better if you first introduced the idea that Hirth identified locations, and only then introduce the idea that these have been disputed (and I think disputed its a better term). Example Frederick Hirth (1885) identified a number of the locations and dependent states named in the Weilüe, although some of his identifications have been disputed... Or something like that.
Both the Old Book of Tang and New Book of Tang record that the Arabs (Da shi 大食) sent their commander "Mo Yi" (摩拽伐之, Pinyin: Mó zhuāi fá zhī, i.e. Muawiyah I, the governor of Syria before becoming the Umayyad caliph, r. 661–680 AD) to besiege the Byzantine capital, Constantinople, and forced the Byzantines to pay them tribute - the information in brackets really breaks up the flow of this sentence - maybe better as a footnote?

More comments to follow,. Sabine's Sunbird talk 21:54, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sabine's Sunbird: hello! Thanks for reviewing the article. As per your suggestions, I have clarified who the Seres were, reworded and split apart that long sentence about the Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, and reworded the passage about Hirth (1885), Hill (2004), and the Weilüe. However, I did not edit the part about the Arabs and Muawiyah I. I think most readers simply do not consult the footnotes, and removing the context that "Mo Yi" has been identified as Muawiyah I would lead most readers to question who the hell we're talking about. That explanation is planted there in order to avoid confusion as much as it is to highlight the fact that the Chinese were privy enough to affairs and important individuals of the Mediterranean world that they identified them by name (at least by the 7th century AD). In either case I look forward to your other suggestions. Cheers. Pericles of Athens^Talk 23:03, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

maybe commander "Mo Yi" (Muawiyah I, governor of Syria and later Umayyad caliph, r. 661–680 AD) to besiege the Byzantine capital, Constantinople... ? Sabine's Sunbird talk 23:11, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately no, because I have not created a separate article yet for "Mo Yi" (as opposed to Muawiyah I, who should have a separate article from the person described in Chinese sources). Removing the Chinese characters goes against Wikipedia:Manual of Style/China-related articles. Until I or someone else creates a "Mo Yi" article, I'm afraid that they have to stay. Pericles of Athens^Talk 23:36, 4 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure it's been discussed ad nauseum in the talk pages, but I feel compelled to note that I thought the MOS existed to make Wikipedia easier and clearer to read. But I've had my own run-ins with the MOS and their...idiosyncrasies, so I won't push the issue here. I still think that Muawiyah I, governor of Syria and later Umayyad caliph, r. 661–680 AD is clearer than the governor of Syria before becoming the Umayyad caliph, r. 661–680 AD. Throwing the verb becoming threw me off on my first pass through because I skipped over the whole "Mo Yi" (摩拽伐之, Pinyin: Mó zhuāi fá zhī, i.e. - I missed the bracket opening an assumed the next bit of text followed on from the Arabs (Da shi 大食) sent their commander. And brevity is a bonus here.

Anyway, on with the review.

Embassy to Augustus - The 2nd-century AD Roman historian Florus describes Context of who Florus is is great, would have been better the first time he was mentioned in the main text of the article.
Question on this section, we have describes the visit of numerous envoys, including the "Seres" (possibly the Chinese) to the first Roman Emperor Augustus (r. 27 BC – 14 AD) followed by a direct quote. Then a discussion about how little else can be found from the sources. My question is - is there nothing more than can be said about this embassy than the quote? There must be some analysis in the historical literature about it? (This may not be actionable, but it seems this section is of particular importance and relies heavily on just the account.
in both the Parthian Empire and Kushan Empire of Asia, ethnic Greeks continued to be employed as entertainers such as musicians and athletes why continued? (Isn't clear from the surrounding sentences. Also, why the introduction of Syrian jugglers at the end of the paragraph... are we talking Syrian Greeks?

More to come, saving edit. Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:21, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

provided much-needed "prestige" for Emperor Huan, as he was facing serious political troubles and fallout for the forced suicide of Liang Ji, who had dominated the Han government well after the death of his sister Empress Liang Na. - some context is needed as this is a bit of a non sequitur. Who is Liang Ji? Is it enough to say political troubles after the forced suicide of politician and rival Liang Ji? Or better yet, how about he was facing serious political troubles in the period known as the Disasters of the Partisan Prohibitions. (or first DPP). This makes it explicit that the troubles were severe (severe enough to have a wikipedia article), links clearly to the troubles and Liang Ji if readers are interested, without getting bogged down in history tangential to the scope of the article.
Yule speculated that the Roman visitors must have lost their original wares due to robbery or shipwreck and used the aforementioned items as gifts instead, prompting the Chinese sources to accuse them of withholding their more precious valuables, I think this section should come after the sentence on what the gifts were, and lead with the accusation, and then follow with the scholarly assessment that they may have been robbed. Sabine's Sunbird talk 04:37, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sabine's Sunbird: my reply to your latest suggestions:

I shifted the description of Florus up to the first instance where he is mentioned in the article. Good catch!
There's not much analysis about Florus' quote and, as Yule pointed out, no other instance where a Roman historian mentioned a "Seres" embassy arriving in the Roman Empire.
As a historian I thought it was clear, but I suppose most people don't realize the Parthian Empire and Kushan Empire came after the Hellenistic period in Asia (a period that coincided with Alexander the Great's conquests and the diadochi successor state of the Seleucid Empire). I have amended that sentence accordingly to provide a bit more context about how ethnic Greeks in Asia "continued" their professions as athletes and musicians.
Syrian jugglers means just that...it could include anyone from ancient Syria, not necessarily ethnic Greeks (although they were the premier ethnic group there in Hellenistic times). That's too much to explain in one sentence without getting too wordy; I think it is fine how it is and doesn't mislead the reader in any way.
I have added the word "politician" before "Liang Ji."
I have shifted the sentence about Yule's speculations of this group's wares being taken in robbery or lost in a shipwreck right after the sentence that listed the wares offered as gifts to the Han court. Pericles of Athens^Talk 15:05, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Another embassy from Daqin is recorded in the year 284 AD, as bringing tributary gifts to the Chinese Jin Empire (265–420 AD). would make a lot more sense if in the year 284AD, was taken out. It's badly broken as is
Chinese histories for the Tang dynasty (618–907 AD) record contacts with merchants from "Fulin" (拂菻), the new name used to designate the Byzantine Empire, the continuation of the Roman Empire in the east.[27][83] During the 19th century Hirth and Yule identified Fulin as the Byzantine Empire Redundancy: two sentences telling us the Fulin in Byzantine, one after another. Try and reword so the salient points (Tang dynasty records, Hirth and Yule's conclusion, what Fulin is) are covered once
Yule asserts that the additional Fulin embassies during the Tang period arrived in 711 and 719 AD, with another in 742 AD that may have simply been Nestorian monks Asserts jibes oddly with may in this sentence - maybe Yule sugests? Sabine's Sunbird talk 16:53, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have reworded that sentence about Daqin and the Jin Empire, shifting the date "284 AD" into the next sentence.
I have slightly reworded the part about Fulin being the Byzantine Empire, but I disagree that there is a redundancy here when one sentence is about the statements found in Tang-period Chinese histories and another is about the scholarly consensus as it existed in the 19th century. These two are not the same. If you have a better suggestion, supply it please, because I fail to see the problem here.
No. Yule does not "suggest" that Fulin embassies came in 711 and 719 AD. Those are the dates he was adamant about. It was the mission in 742 AD that is more questionable and may have only been one of Nestorian Christian monks from West Asia instead of "Fulin" people. The sentence reads just fine from what I can tell. You might be overthinking this, just a bit too hard. Pericles of Athens^Talk 19:48, 5 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mea culpa...

the Tang Dynasty considered "Daqin" and "Fulin" is followed by an account which compares Fulin was held to be identical with the ancient Ta-ts'in.. I'm going to go out on a limb - Ta-ts'in is Daqin - rendered differently (I'm guessing Wade-Giles spelling is different). This is complicated stuff for people not in the field and could use an explanation, (Wade-Giles and Ta-ts'in hadn't appeared yet in the main text, maybe a footnote? It's a fascinating account, just needs to be a little clearer for laypeople.
He also lists Roman items found there, including glass beads and bracelets. Dumb question - What does this add to the paragraph? The sections is about whether the romans went there. We already know that Roman stuff was found there. Warwick Ball's hypothesis is interesting, this factoid isn't. If it is, it isn't clear why.
I'll come back and finish off. I'm struggling a little bit with the background of the coins paragraph, so I'll look at it later with a clear head. Sabine's Sunbird talk 03:53, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I have added information about Wade-Giles versus Pinyin spelling conventions into the footnote for that block quote of a passage from the Wenxian Tongkao.
I have shifted the statement about beads and bracelets up to the previous paragraph where it is more relevant. Good point!
I look forward to the rest of your review. Regards. Pericles of Athens^Talk 04:27, 6 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, reading through again support. Good stuff. Thanks for putting up with my comments :) Sabine's Sunbird talk 07:04, 7 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sabine's Sunbird: thanks! I'm glad that you enjoyed reading and reviewing the article. All the best. Pericles of Athens^Talk 08:22, 7 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)

I can't quite sign off on the first paragraph (though I'll probably support anyway). Normally, I limit myself to problems that are small enough that I can just fix them, without complaining ... but there's no obvious fix, since leads are limited to 4 paragraphs. It tries to do too much, so it's hard to avoid problems like the "Mutual awareness" sentence, which follows a sentence about Parthians and Kushans, raising the question of who's aware of whom. - Dank (push to talk) 13:39, 18 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Dank: hello! Thanks for reviewing and copyediting the article. I have no qualms with the edits you've made thus far, so there's no need to revert anything. As for your concern about the first paragraph, I found a very easy solution. I simply shifted the problematic/confusing sentence up and just before the one about the Parthian and Kushan empires. This makes it clear that we are still talking about the Han Chinese and Roman empires. This was a great observation! I look forward to any others and am willing to address any objections you might have. All the best. Pericles of Athens^Talk 16:00, 18 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

much-needed "prestige" for: Lose the scare-quotes, if possible.
"giving him the title": Lose the in-text link to the the Chinese Wikisource. There are several options.
stuffed into a "feather bag": I changed this to: stuffed into what was called a "feather bag". Since quote marks can mean roughly four different things, it's important to specify what they mean (which sometimes means you can drop the quote marks altogether).
Support on prose per my standard disclaimer. These are my edits. I can't speak to much of the history, but the article is dense and the scope is breathtaking ... quite an accomplishment. More please! - Dank (push to talk) 16:21, 18 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Dank: excellent! Thank you very much for your support. I have removed the scare quotes around the word "prestige" and I've moved the Chinese language Wikisource link down to the "External links" section. I hope that suffices! Cheers. Pericles of Athens^Talk 16:40, 18 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source review: All sources of very high quality, and certainly reliable. Formatting looks largely OK for "Sources" (though I might have missed something as it is certainly comprehensive) but I noticed a couple of things in the Citations:

Consistency over ending citations with a period/full stop (e.g. ref 3) or not (e.g. ref 4)
Consistency over page numbers: Are we using pp. 123-124 or 123-24: there is some variation.
Consistency over using p. and pp. or p and pp for page numbers.
Ref 46: "Florus, as quoted in Yule (1915), p. 18; footnote#" Do we have a missing footnote number here?

Otherwise looks OK, but as there are such extensive references, I'll have another quick check when these have been addressed. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:21, 27 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sarastro1: greetings! It is nice to hear from you again. I have fixed citation #46 in the meantime (by specifying which footnote was used on that particular page in Yule's book), but we'll have to discuss these other points before moving forward. I was able to find one citation that lacked a letter "p" referring to the page number (ref #106, Grant 2005, p. 99). Having fixed that, I was unable to find any others that lacked the abbreviation for pagination. If you are able to spot any others, please let me know and I will fix them. As to your other queries: unfortunately, even if I chose not to place periods at the end of regular citations, there would still need to be periods at the end of certain citations that contain additional text or references to online sources that require punctuation after stating the date of retrieval. I think I'll just place periods after the end of each citation, but I'd like to hear your input about that first. As for placing a period after "p" or "pp", the academic standard is to provide punctuation after a single "p" but not the double one. Should I go ahead and apply that standard to the article? I meant to do that anyway but must have forgotten or made some minor mistakes. Yours most sincerely, Pericles of Athens^Talk 02:32, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone ahead and decided to be bold, fixing all the citations so that the use of punctuation is now entirely consistent. I hope this is sufficient! Cheers. Pericles of Athens^Talk 13:43, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I've never seen ""pp" used on WP, only "pp." and I think it is better done like this so that no-one thinks it is an inconsistency. One other query: "Pulleyblank (1999), p. 77f." is not quite clear: what are we meaning by f here? There are a few possible interpretations, and I think we need to be clear. Sarastro1 (talk) 22:14, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Sarastro1: I have gone through the entire article and placed a period after every "pp" that I could find. Feel free to check it, but I'm almost positive that I got each and every one. As for the Pulleyblank citation, it is one of the very few that I did not personally add to this article. Upon inspection (since I have access to JSTOR and am able to read Pulleyblank's article), it appears that someone made a typo. The "f" doesn't appear to have any relevance at all, and the page numbers should be 77-78, not just "77" alone. I have fixed that. As for the few other citations in the article that I did not add, I can't really remember them, but I can assure you that I do not introduce typos or mistakes into my own citations (I tend to double-check them and actually add material to the article while having a book or article open, so that there's virtually no room for mistakes). Please do let me know if there's anything else that needs to be addressed. Cheers! --Pericles of Athens^Talk 22:53, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think sourcing is OK now. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:52, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Great! Glad to hear it. Thanks once again for reviewing the article. Pericles of Athens^Talk 22:13, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 16:03, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fantastic! This is excellent news! Cheers. Pericles of Athens^Talk 16:19, 31 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.