Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Roy Welensky

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 16:08, 30 July 2007.

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Roy Welensky

Article about a famous white African leader during the decolonisation period that I wrote up in two weeks. Has been prose checked by Tony, full of references, and is interesting enough. I look forward to the response. Michael ^talk 10:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

• I did this a while ago, and I suspect it's the kiss of death to admit my contribution. It will certainly generate a lot of scrutiny. Tony 11:47, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Tony. Michael ^talk 11:51, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

• Comment: Just quickly, but if someone comes along and places a reference between your ibids, it's going to mess things up. Cheers, darkliight^[πalk] 11:43, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

1) Are editors that foolish? 2) The likelihood of this article being substantially altered is remote. Michael ^talk 12:15, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

1) Supposing not would be a big assumption for an encyclopedia that anyone can edit. 2) Swap so for not in 1). Even minor rearrangements of text could disrupt the ibids. Anyway, just an idle comment, so I'll leave it at that. Cheers, darkliight^[πalk] 12:24, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

1) Do you really want an answer to that question? :) Sheep81 13:15, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

A strange and hearty anonymous user has seen to some formatting improvements. Bravo! Michael ^talk 06:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

• Support - Comprehensive and well-written for the most part. Just go through and make sure all of you clearly specify who you are talking about when you use pronouns. An example from the first paragraph of the "New constitutions" section: "After Banda was released from prison against the wishes of Welensky, he travelled to the United Kingdom, where he took part in the Nyasaland constitutional talks. The outcome was a constitution which, through a voting system that was equally as complex as that of the federation itself, amounted to black majority rule for the territory. Bitter and angry at what he saw as British ignorance to the situation, he did not comprehend how the British were willing to deal with Banda." Who's "he"? I assume it's Welensky based on context, but I shouldn't have to read through to the end of the sentence just to be able to guess who the subject is. Thanks! Sheep81 13:23, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
• Comment. It's not common practice to bold parts of image captions. Could you unbold them? CG 11:49, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose due to missing citations and prose issues. Comment
  • Another pronoun issue -- "With the advent of African rule in two of the Federation's three territories, it collapsed in 1963." Possibly reword to "After the advent of African rule in two of the three Federation territories, the Federation collapsed in 1963."

Fixed.

The problem is "it" could either refer to African rule or the Federation. need to spell out that it is the Federation that collapsed.

• • I would wikilink Afrikaner in the Youth section.

Done.

• • If his mother's family is a ninth-generation Afrikaner, it stands to reason that her family had lived in Africa for centuries, so you probably don't need to spell that out.

Corrected.

• • This sentence is bad. It makes it sound like a) Welensky's mother was 11 when she died and b) she died because she was treatet by Godfrey Huggins. The sentence is also not sourced. -- "At the age of 11, Welensky's mother died, having been treated by Godfrey Huggins, a doctor who was later to become the Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia."

Rewritten.

Still need a source, and the sentence still does not read well.

• • Do you need to say "train driver (railroad engineer)" or can it just read "train driver" or "railroad engineer?" It seems silly to have both.

Fixed.

railroad engineer should not be capitalized.

• • The last 2 paragraphs of youth section seem to go back and forth between boxing and the railroad. Can you separate those out into two distinct paragraphs, one on boxing and one on railroad career?

Done.

• • Do you have a year for when he married Elizabeth Henderson?

Unfortunately, no. So I can't fix this one. Hopefully it will not be a block.

• • The Colonial politics section needs citations

Refs done.

• • DO you know the name of the Governor who prevented Welensky from enlisting?

Not named in any of my resources, so no. Again, hopefully not a block.

• • First paragraph of Amalgamation and Federation section needs citations

Refs done.

• • I think the article overuses parentheses. Instead, try to incorporate the text into the article. Sometimes it's as easy as using commas around the phrase instead of the parentheses.
  • In this quote: "However, he insisted that "and for as long as I can see, in that partnership [the whites] will be senior partners" you don't need to begin his quote with "and"

I know that in some articles quotes are used to excess, but in this case, they are quite appropriate. The parentheses are essential to the... integrity... of the quote itself.

• • "It was fortunate for them " - This is not appropriate for a formal encyclopedia article

Removed.

• • Do a copyedit for comma usage. There are several places where a comma is used to apparently combine 2 sentences, but the second half is not a complete sentence and therefore no comma should be used. For example: "It marked the decline of a gradual approach to decolonisation, and a rapid speeding up of the process"

I fail to see how this is a problem, and I don't believe that my use of the common is technically incorrect. The article has already been copyedited by Tony.

• • Remove red links

There are a grand total of four red links (that I remember), so I do not think this is a problem. In time all will have articles.

• • Problem with your transition into this quote: "of making the situation "as consisting of two opposed policies, black rule and white rule. They naturally prefer to aim for black rule and hope they will experience this, which they regard as the apotheosis of Colonial Office policy". instead of beginning the quote with "as consisting," use "[consist] .."

Fixed.

• • This sentence and its quotation change pronouns halfway through, using he and I. It needs to be a consistent point-of-view. "In January 1959, he stated in a speech that he "put Salisbury [the capital] on fire ... I got Salisbury rocking, rocking, and got it awake out of its political sleep..."[23] , after which his followers stoned passing cars and verbally abused whites."

Perhaps you could suggest an appropriate way to fix this. At this point, I see no remedy (or a need to have a remedy, as I see no problem).

• • Need a citation for this: "after which his followers stoned passing cars and verbally abused whites."

Refs added.

• • This sentence doesn't make sense to me: "Welensky obtained the meeting's proceedings" Shouldn't it be, "discovered the meeting's plans" or something along those lines?

No, he obtained the proceedings, as it said. It was a meeting, with minutes (proceedings was chosen as "minutes" would sound a bit funny).

I've never heard "proceedings" used in place of minutes. Is that common in British English? Karanacs 17:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

• • Instead of using "the Governor," use his name. "the Governor proclaimed a state of emergency on March 3,"

I do not have the name of the Governor, unfortunately.

• • Need citation for paragraph about African nationalist parties being banned and renamed

This was fun to go through, having to find citations all over the place for banning, and reforming. In there though.

• • Need citation for last half of first paragraph of Commissions and MacMillan section

Refs added.

• • "The outcome was a constitution which, through a voting system that was equally as complex as that of the federation itself, amounted to black majority rule for the territory. Bitter and angry at what he saw as British ignorance to the situation, he did not comprehend how the British were willing to deal with Banda. " -- Who is "he"?

Corrected.

• • mixed pronoun usage here -- in one half of the sentence his refers to Banda, in the other half to Welensky. "In Welensky's words, since his release from prison, "[Banda] was careful to appeal for calm and to condemn violence"[33], but he was averse to Banda's demands for black majority rule and believed that granting it to the territory would mean the end of the " This also needs a citation.

Fixed and ref added.

• • This sentence needs to be rewritten. "Eventually, Welensky was comfortable to have an African majority in Nyasaland and for the province to secede, seeking to preserve only a union of the two Rhodesias" "was comfortable to have" is not proper English, and your verb tenses don't match in the two clauses

Easily fixed.

• • Need citation for first paragraph of Territorial and federal elections section
  • Need citation for this "but ensured that the talks went smoothly"
  • Need citation for the events that happened when the FR declared unilateral independence

Refs ll provided, but I do think the article is getting quite overloaded with them.

It may seem like overkill, but for verification purposes, it is best to have everything cited.Karanacs 17:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Karanacs 15:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Responses inline. I hope you can cross out that oppose. Michael ^talk 09:10, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

• Support. Excellent work as usual. Rebecca 12:43, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose Further copy-editing needed.

• These have redundancies: "brought the different parties to an agreement." "All of the nationalists groups" "removing various restrictions imposed".
• "With new constitutions in place for the territories, elections were held throughout 1961–62, with Welensky's UFP being beaten in each one." - repetition of "with".
• Try not to use the word "whilst".
• "Prior to" is overly formal.
• "Famous" is a peacock term. Epbr123 09:48, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The redundancies and "famous" are worthy objections, and I have corrected them, but the others do seem to be leaning towards a certain type of English. "Whilst" and "prior to" and words and phrases which would be associated with a more formal type of speech, and should not be frowned upon here, as they are not overly pompous. Michael ^talk 10:55, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. Oppose withdrawn. Epbr123 10:36, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

• Support As Rebecca said, excellent writing as always. Perspicacite 08:46, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

• Oppose. The article is generally really well-written. The problem is that it seems to focus too much on Rhodesian history rather than keeping to Welensky's biography. There are whole paragraphs that do not mention. While it is important to give the political/historical/etc. context. I think the article currently goes too far. I would love to change support this one once this issue has been taken care of. Also:
  • The following all deserve to be linked (even if it's only a red link): European Railway Workers Union, Northern Rhodesian Legislative Council, Northern Rhodesian Labour Party, Victoria Falls Hotel (even if you don't add a redlink, the blue one to the article about the waterfalls should definately be removed), South African Parliament
  • Often, an event is described without mentioning when it took place. Specifically, the following need to have the year they took place in added: "A British general election was held and the Conservatives gained power.", "The party was successful in its first election, with twice the votes of the opposition Confederate Party", "The Southern Rhodesian Government, under the leadership of Garfield Todd, began removing restrictions imposed on native Africans."
  • "Apart from organising the federation, Welensky won a significant political battle at home against the British South Africa Company (BSAC), which controlled mineral rights and the associated royalties throughout Northern Rhodesia." Does "at home" mean in Great Britain?
  • "Having lived outside the territory for more than 25 years and unable to speak his native African language, he required the assistance of interpreters to communicate with the population, whom he stirred into a frenzy with his speeches" What is "his native African language"? The langage of Nyasaland?--Carabinieri 17:44, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I will agree with you wholeheartedly that at times the article goes into significant detail of Rhodesian history. But Welensky was the main player in much of it, his own autobiography is a Rhodesian history treasure trove, and I think that it needs to be included to put things *in context*. The article reads well for a newcomer to Rhodesia (most people don't know what it is), and this background history is an asset. I will add some more detail into those sentences noted, however. Michael ^talk 00:59, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

I will also agree with you wholeheartedly that giving the context is important in some cases, but I believe this article just goes too far. Otherwise, it's a great article.--Carabinieri 19:38, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

• Support, everything looks to be in order now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.