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Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Princess Alice of Battenberg

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 18:43, 15 May 2007.

Princess Alice of Battenberg edit

Mother of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh. Wife of Prince Andrew of Greece. Sister of Queen Louise of Sweden and Louis Mountbatten, 1st Earl Mountbatten of Burma.

  • Support Self-nominated. Peer-reviewed good article. DrKiernan 10:51, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Object - A couple of minor issues that I'm sure you can clean up quickly enough, followed by a bigger concern.
    • Needs a couple more references. The "Marriage" section in particular is unsourced. I'm sure all those names and dates are in the public record, but you need to cite that record, so that researchers can track down where we got the info.
    • There's awkward prose. In "Married Life", "In 1913 George V awarded her the Royal Red Cross. But..." is not only unsourced (and I've tagged it), but a really stubby sentence, followed by another sentence beginning with "But", which is occasionally acceptable prose, but not here. At any rate, I'd recommend you go through the article, possibly reading it aloud to yourself, to find any more such little bits that don't flow very well or elegantly.
      • Gone through as best I can. DrKiernan 07:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Now, my major issue. This is a historical public figure, and we only have two sources cited? Yeah, most facts are cited, but all those cites come from the same two books. I'm concerned that relying so exclusively on just two sources could lead to potential unintentional bias, leaking in from the sources cited. Different historians have different takes on issues, after all. Could we get some more sources?
    • As a continuation of the above, as a historical public figure, is this really all there is to note about her? It may be the case, but it still seems a bit sparse on events and details of significance. Perhaps she was just boring, aside from her mental breakdown? But I don't know. I'd like more assurance that this article really is comprehensive, and the best way to do that would be to find other sources than the two currently used, and see what they have to say.
      • Expanded first half. DrKiernan 07:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Expanded second half and added further notes. DrKiernan 07:46, 2 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Other than these points, the article seems pretty good to my inexpert eyes. Fieari 19:16, 26 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Object per: Support
  • Titles section is short, makes a list of two items, and has no references.
    • The titles section is standard on royalty and nobility biographies. References added. DrKiernan 07:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Four sources is too few, and they're all from the UK, and three are from London, and two are by the same author.
    • See below. In addition, Vickers biography was also published elsewhere (New York edition by St. Martin's Press). DrKiernan 07:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Merrh... still biased.
        • I've added about another a dozen. DrKiernan 14:53, 1 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Marriage section has no citations.
  • Lede is disproportionately long, see WP:LEAD. First paragraph focuses more on other people than on Alice herself.
  • First and fifth paragraphs of Married life are missing citations.
  • World War II ends with a one-sentence paragraph.
    • I did that deliberately for dramatic effect! DrKiernan 07:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Tee hee. World War II has three paragraphs, each of totally different sizes from one another. One-sentence paragraphs, though dramatic, are inappropriate.
  • Months and dates should not be linked, see WP:MOS.
    • Fixed. DrKiernan 07:18, 30 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Not quite. See Marriage section.
        • I can't find any other wikilinked years that lack dates. DrKiernan 11:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Second paragraph of Widowed life has no citations.
  • "In 1930 she was diagnosed as schizophrenic and for the next six or seven years lived largely separated from her family." (from the lead) is a sucky sentence. Is it six years or is it seven? "Largely separated" is not encyclopedic. The sentence needs commas.
  • "wearing a version of her nun's habit" which version?
  • "and later, after her engagement, she learned Greek" Did she learn to lip-read it as with English and German, or did she to learn to speak it...?
    • From the top of my head, I think she did actually speak it, but with an extremely bad accent! I'd have to read through Vickers to check again. DrKiernan 16:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC) It does actually say on page 71 of Vickers "spoke it fluently", which I find hard to believe. DrKiernan 11:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

--Cryptic C62 · Talk

I knew my run of good luck with FA nominations couldn't hold. I'm not sure how addressable these criticisms are - even the Official Web-site of the British Monarchy copies directly from Vickers. Anyway, I shall have to see what I can do. DrKiernan 09:54, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't worry about finding more sources as much, but addressing the other concerns first. LuciferMorgan 14:42, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did a quick search and I could find no real sources for Alice. Vickers only cites himself and some archives in the DNB article as well. I would just put a little note in the references section about how few references are available. See an example here. Hopefully that will stave off future problems. I will try to review the entire article in a few days (dissertation woes at the moment - anyone know a Locke expert?) Awadewit 08:12, 3 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments. Unfortunately I am abroad now (in the German province!), and I have no access to my Greek sources. I think we can enrich it with some of these, but this will be possible from May 6 and on, after I return to Athens. The article is definitely well-written, but some more sources would definitely help. Let's give this FAC, DrKiernan, some more time and hope! I believe we can make i through! I think Christos Zampounis (an obsessed with the formal Greek royal amily guy!) has also written a book in Greek about her. I will tr to find it. My two Greek encyclopedias (Helios and Papyros-Larousse-Briannica) definitely have articles about her. Anyway! Now, some more remarks after giving the article quick look:
  • "By June 1917, the King's neutrality policy had become so unpopular and untenable that she and other members of the Greek royal family were forced into exile." Not historically accurate. Unpopular among whom? The Greek population? Not exactly. Maybe in the beginning, and until Venizelos' resignation and the creation of the Thessaloniki government, but after the Entente troops arrived in Piraeus, and imposed sanctions and military pressure on the Greek government, the sentiment of the population started to change. The public discontent towards the foreign forces had already made the King more popular. As a matter of fact, the population's reactions (or at least some of the population's reactions), as described by Karolidis, the day the King left were very emotional. Constantine was forced to leave by the English-French pressure, and not by the "dissatisfaction" of the population towards the King's policy.
    • Hmmmn. I think your points are fair, but Venizelos did win the election after all, and set up a rival government in Salonika after the King refused to support his policy. I do appreciate that my sentence is over-simplistic in summarising the entirety of Greek history in World War I, but I would prefer the emphasis of the article to be on Alice not on the political turmoil. That should be in other articles. I have removed "unpopular" but am not prepared to undertake a more extensive revision myself. (Of course, whether you do is up to you!) DrKiernan 16:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sometimes, you over wikify. You link, e.g., King Constantine I at least 3 times.
    • There were two links each to Constantine I and II. I have removed one of the links to Constantine I, but prefer to keep both to Constantine II because one is at the beginning of the article and the other at the end. DrKiernan 11:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Alice's husband Prince Andrew, who had served as commander of the Second Army Corps during the war, was arrested." I am not sure about that. I want to check it.
  • "Several former ministers and generals arrested at the same time were shot, and British diplomats assumed that Prince Andrew was also in mortal danger." Not only former ministers. Prime minister as well!
    • Yes, I agree that could be included. DrKiernan 16:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • "King Constantine II of the Hellenes and Queen Anne-Marie voluntarily went into exile that December after a failed royalist counter-coup." Typically "voluntarily", but I am not sure if this adverb fits to the situation. After the failed counter-coup, the King had no other alternative but to flee.
    • Yes, I see. I shall remove "voluntarily". DrKiernan 16:21, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

In general, it looks to me as a very nice article. I'll work on it in accord to my comments above within the next days.--Yannismarou 09:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comments This article, as usual from DrKiernan, is quite good. I have just a few quibbles before I support.

  • The first paragraph of the lead needs to be spiced up. It reads too much like a family tree.
  • I still think that the first lead of the paragraph could have more punch, but I am not going to withhold my support on this alone. Awadewit Talk 06:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there nothing more that you can include in the "Early life" section? It seems a bit short on information.
  • I still wish there were more information here. Awadewit Talk 06:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whilst Prince Andrew continued his career in the military, she became involved in charity work. - I think "whilst" sounds a bit overly formal and there are two in a row.
  • On their return to Greece, Prince and Princess Andrew found the political situation worsening, a group of dissatisfied officers formed a Military League that eventually led to Andrew's resignation from the army and the rise to power of Eleftherios Venizelos. - could you explain in a little more detail, please?
  • I think that the second paragraph in "Successive life crises" needs some sort of topic sentence to unite the disparate facts there - something about revolution and war affecting her larger family.
  • There are some repetitious links (Constantine, for example) which adds to the illusion of an overlinked page. Many of these links are probably necessary but once you link them, don't link them again - it makes the page hard to read, in my opinion.
  • That winter, she translated her husband's defence of his actions during the Greco-Turkish War into English.[20][21] However, she then began claiming that she was receiving divine messages, and that she had healing powers. - I'm not sure that the "however" logically follows.
  • Another patient there at the time was Vaslav Nijinsky. - explain why the reader would be interested to know this
  • She organised two refuges for orphaned and stray children, and a nursing circuit for the poor neighbourhoods. - "refuges" seemed like odd diction here
  • As one of Alice's sons-in-law, Christoph von Hessen, was a member of the NSDAP and the Waffen-SS, and another, Berthold von Baden, had been invalided out of the German army in 1940 after an injury in France, the occuping forces presumably assumed Alice would be pro-German. - sentence is hard to follow
  • I do think you should put in a note about why you are following one source so closely. Awadewit Talk 06:33, 6 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks. Article amended. DrKiernan 09:49, 9 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • Support This is a well-written, well-researched article. I cannot speak to its comprehensiveness, but it serves as a fine introduction to this particular royal. Awadewit Talk 06:09, 12 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mild Object There are two references by Vickers, but you don't disambiguate them in the citations. I presume that Citation 4 is the only one from the DNB, and all of the other citations refer to the full biography, but I feel that it is worth making this explicit. E.g. changing all citations to Vickers, to Vickers (2000) Bluap 16:33, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've tried several variations, and selected my favourite - removing Vickers, 2004 from the "References" section and just including it in the "Notes". Other options, adding years, etc. look untidy to me. DrKiernan 17:22, 11 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No it doesn't: it's half blue, giving a very untidy appearance that's harder to read. A lot of the links are good, so why are words such as "English" blued out? And "Tegel, Berlin"—Just link "Tegel", please. Same for "Switzerland" (where the first occurrence is not linked ...). Needs a link audit to satisfy the requirement for "professional" formatting. Some of the sentences are very long, like: "During Princess Andrew's long convalescence, she and Prince Andrew drifted apart, her daughters all married German noblemen between 1930 and 1931 (she did not attend any of the weddings), and Prince Philip went to England to stay with his uncles, Lord Louis Mountbatten and George Mountbatten, 2nd Marquess of Milford Haven, and his grandmother, the Dowager Marchioness of Milford Haven.[28]". Commas need attention: shift the one after "army" to after "Wars" in "With the advent of the Balkan Wars Prince Andrew was reinstated to the army, and Princess Andrew acted as a nurse, assisting at operations and setting up field hospitals, for which work George V awarded her the Royal Red Cross in 1913.[4]". Tony 03:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • The formatting of the citation is determined by the editors of the citation templates. "Berlin" only occurs once in the article, and that occurrence is linked. I have corrected the Switzerland link, and re-arranged the others. I have moved the comma. DrKiernan 07:50, 15 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
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