Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pain fitzJohn/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 15:46, 4 March 2012 [1].

Pain fitzJohn

Featured article candidates/Pain fitzJohn/archive1

Nominator(s): Ealdgyth - Talk 18:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... after patient research, as well as lots of copyediting, I think i've got a pretty complete view of this rather elusive Henry I's "new men". Pain was a relatively lowly nobleman who rose in Henry's service to control a very strategic position in the Welsh Marches, as well as one of England's most famous castles - Ludlow Castle. He and his brother were powerful magnates, but Pain died before his brother and did not found a long lived family as his brother did. The article is a complete new start, as I started it back in 2011, I've done all of the research as well as most of the writing. It's been kindly reviewed at GA, as well as having a nice peer review and other reviews by a number of editors - including Fifeloo, Nikkimaria, Brianbolton, and Ruhrfisch. It also has benefited from comments from Nev1 about Ludlow as well as a final polish by Malleus. Note - I'm competing in the Wikicup, but this article will NOT count for points, as most of the work/research/etc was done last year. I present to you - Pain fitzJohn, an nobleman who mixed with kings and earls in his lifetime but has largely fallen from historical sight since then. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

Spotchecks carried out on ODNB sources, no issues
Multiple citations should be in ascending sequence, e.g. [[16][24] not [24][16]

Otherwise all sources look good. Brianboulton (talk) 19:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I copyedited the article and made a few review suggestions, duly implemented. An excellent peek ito our vanished past when knights were bold...etc etc. Brianboulton (talk) 19:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Why is Wrightman's opinion of the man given his own paragraph? And the closing one? - hahnch e n 23:18, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If I could find other opinions on Pain's career or character, I'd have included them also. Wrightman's the only one who editorialized on him - originally I had it in with other paragraphs, but it doesn't really fit well anywhere. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you think his opinion is important, that's fine, I just thought it stuck out, possibly as undue weight given that Wrightman's book is focused on the Lacy side. - hahnch e n 23:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support ~~Comments~~ from Noleander

Explain/define in lead: "..one of King Henry I of England's "new men".". Reader should not have to click on link to determine the significance of the "new men" term. Either define/explain right there, or later in lead.
Ambiguous: "Pain was probably the eldest son of John fitzRichard..." - Ambiguous: need to specify what is uncertain: the "eldest" or that his father was JFR?
Grave site: "He was buried in Gloucester Abbey .." - Is he still there? Can tourists visit the grave? Any photo available?
Clarify: " ... as they are frequently found witnessing the same charters and other royal documents." - I presume "witness" means that they signed a document. Probably should explain that for lay readers.
Define: "...and that the king "stationed them above earls and famous castellans" - I'm pretty well read but I have no clue what a castellan is. Someone who owns a castle? Someone from Castile?

The more familiar French form is "Châtelain", and perhaps this could be pipelinked. Brianboulton (talk) 18:41, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Verbose: " is not securely confirmed in " - The "securely" seems redundant. Remove? Or, if need to keep it, change to a more conventional adverb like positively or absolutely etc.
Verbose: "... she was described as being a widow." - Could be simpler: " ... she was a widow" or "... she was described as a widow".
Define: "... Henry gave Pain the lordships ..." - Define "lordship" for lay readers. Or, at least, link to WP article.
Awkward wording: "... the date of their granting to Pain is unknown." - How would E. B. White phrase that?
Define/explaiin: "...his payment for danegeld in 1130 ..." - Shouldn't have to click on "danegeld" to comprehend the meaning of the sentence.
Punctuation: "On 10 July 1137 Pain was killed by a javelin blow to the head, during an ambush by the Welsh ..." - Move comma from after "head" to after "1137".

If Ealdgyth moves that comma I'll buy a plane ticket to the US, hunt her down, and kill her. Malleus Fatuorum 21:50, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And I will personally conduct the burial service. Brianboulton (talk) 18:41, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

All-in-all a fine article. I'm having a hard time finding any shortcomings.

End Noleander comments. --Noleander (talk) 21:17, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've dealt with all of the above except for the "securely" and the comma where I was threatened with death... securely here is the correct "technical" term - using another would be less correct to the source. And I'm not touching the comma .. not after my two main copyeditors threatened me! Thank you for the review - sorry it took a few days to get back, I"m still fighting some cold/flu/something that's driving me nuts. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:56, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I changed my "Comments" to "Support". Regarding the comma: my real point (which may have gotten lost in the humor :-) was that introductory time phrases should normally be followed by a comma, as in "On July 5th, the army advanced ..." because speakers usually pause briefly at that point. Not a big deal. --Noleander (talk) 18:16, 27 February 2012 (UTC)::::[reply]

I think that's something Americans tend to do rather than the wider English-speaking world. Malleus Fatuorum 18:41, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

It's a bit hard to read some of the town names in the map, though I don't know there's much you can do about that
What source or data set was used to create File:WelshMarchesMap.jpg? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:49, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I used my handy Michelin Europa map - isbn 2061005764. Didn't need a huge map for this. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:57, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support with nitpicks

"is not securely confirmed" - would suggest "clearly confirmed" or similar
Do we know if/how Hugh and Walter de Lacy are related (since Walter has no article)?
"Her kinsman Gilbert de Lacy was the son of Roger de Lacy, who had been banished from England in 1095 and his English estates confiscated; he had though retained his properties in Normandy; Roger's English possessions were given to his brother Hugh de Lacy, from whom Sybil had inherited them" - would suggest making "Roger's English possessions..." a new sentence
Be consistent in whether you use en- or emdashes for sentence breaks
Compare FNs 19 and 31. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:49, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I really prefer "securely" - this is the normal terminology for the status in historical circles. The de Lacy family article - sucks. And the state of research into the de Lacy's is fluid. I'd rather not get into a long digression on more de Lacy's - Sibyl's bad enough. Malleus got the Roger's English possessions bit and the dashes - thank you Malleus!!! Fixed the spelling issue in the footnotes. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:57, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.